The Holistic Herbalism Podcast
The Holistic Herbalism Podcast
Interview with Ashley Bissonnette-Murphy
This week we’d like you to meet Ashley Bissonnette-Murphy, who is one of our Clinical Mentorship students. Ashley is advanced in her mentorship, and she’s been seeing her own clients in our Student Clinic and Free Clinic for a year. She does great work!
You can find Ashley at hwapothicaire.com and on social media at @hwapothicaire. Definitely jump on her mailing list to get her excellent monthly newsletters!
We mentioned our free Herbal Business Productivity mini-course in this episode. It’s part of our comprehensive Herbal Business Program!
And if you’re interested in becoming a clinical herbalist, you can learn more about the education you’ll need, how to get it, and what the process looks like here: Build a Career as a Clinical Herbalist.
If you have a moment, it would help us a lot if you could subscribe, rate, & review our podcast wherever you listen. This helps others find us more easily. Thank you!!
Our theme music is “Wings” by Nicolai Heidlas.
You can find all of our online herbalism courses at online.commonwealthherbs.com!
<silence>
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Katya ,
Speaker 3:And I'm ridden . And
Speaker 2:I'm Ashley. And we're here at Commonwealth Holistic Herbalism in Boston, Massachusetts,
Speaker 3:And on the internet everywhere. Thanks to the power of the podcast. Woo
Speaker 2:Woo .
Speaker 3:All right . So you might've noticed that we've got a third person on the pod today, <laugh>. And , uh, that's Ashley, who is one of our most advanced , uh, clinical herbalism students at the moment. Yeah ,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Really rocking it. And we thought that you wonderful podcast people out in the world would enjoy hearing from Ashley about her work as a , um, developing clinical herbalist and , um, working on like, like leaving the nest <laugh> <laugh> . It's, I almost feel like it's not quite right to say student anymore, because you are , like, you're moving into that transition phase. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , um, but I don't quite know the right word, but Yes. Yes. Moving out into practice, into the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Just been sitting with us for some years now. And you started , uh, seeing free clinic clients , uh, almost a year ago in, in September of last year.
Speaker 2:Yeah. In two weeks it's gonna be, or by the time you hear this podcast, maybe it will be the one year anniversary Yeah. Of you seeing your first clients.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And then also seeing the student clinic clients since , uh, the beginning of this year as well. So you're racking up the clinical hours, you're building up your , uh, your , uh, docket of clients and everything. It's been really great.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So , um, we thought that we would do some interview time with Ash and let y'all hear , um, her story about coming into clinical herbalism. And , um, hopefully that will motivate and inspire you all out there in your studies too. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So , um, first we're gonna do our reclaimer. All right . And that's where we remind everybody that we're not doctors, we're herbalists and holistic health educators.
Speaker 2:The ideas discussed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice. Uh, I guess I also don't necessarily constitute business advice , uh, but hopefully business inspiration. There we go. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah ,
Speaker 2:Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , um, no state or federal authority licenses herbalists in the United States. So these discussions are for educational purposes only.
Speaker 3:We wanna remind you that good health doesn't mean the same thing for everyone. Good health doesn't exist as an objective standard. It's influenced by your individual needs, experiences, and goals. So, keep in mind, we're not attempting to present a single dogmatic right way that everyone should adhere to.
Speaker 2:Everyone's body is different. So the things that we're talking about may or may not apply directly to you, but we hope that they'll give you some new information to think about and some ideas to research and experiment with. Further
Speaker 3:Finding a way to better health is both your right and your own personal responsibility. This doesn't mean you're alone on the journey, and it doesn't mean that you're to blame for your current state of health, but it does mean that the final decision, when you're considering any course of action, whether it was discussed on the internet by a trio of your favorite herbalists, <laugh> , or prescribed by your favorite physician, it's still always your choice to make
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> . Yeah. All right . Well, okay. We'll get that outta the way. Yeah . So let's jump in. Ash. What brought you to herbalism? Like, what was your background before you became an herbalist?
Speaker 4:Well, first, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you both for having me on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I've always been interested in herbalism. This wasn't something that I found later in life, actually. I started out in my studies in medical anthropology and public health and pursued that. And then I was a professor of public health doing that for some time, as well as working as a medical anthropologist in the field for 17 years. So, really uncovering indigenous Native American, Southern New England Native American remedies, but through an archeological context, which is already pretty limited because aerial parts don't preserve really in the soils. Right. So a lot of the char the root materials, but it gave me a sense of what was going on, how indigenous people were working with them, and some of the earliest context. But my first , can
Speaker 2:I just, can I just interrupt you to say, yeah , that's wicked cool. And I didn't know you could go to college for that <laugh>, so that's awesome.
Speaker 4:Yeah ,
Speaker 3:Yeah , I can ,
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I started working with , uh, you know, some of the tribes. And from there really got roped into some grant work looking at the peacock war in King Phillips War, which are 1636, and then the King Phillips War 1675. And how those earliest conflicts really begin to strip away or degrade or push underground indigenous remedies. And that includes herbal medicine. So there was a huge gap in historical record , um, ethnographies, you name it. But going through the archeological records, ethnographies, there was always a big part of this that was missing, and that was why I wanted to go into clinical studies. We had no idea about dosage, how to use it for an individual, just what was going on behind that. I'll call it a dirt lens, you know, it's just <laugh> . There was so much that was missing. So that really prompted me forward to, into public health and beginning to learn the applications of preventative health, and then just really dabbing through with the clinical step with both of you. So it's been really exciting, but that was, that's kind of my evolution.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's interesting because part of what you were saying there was, was just reminding me of, of an experience a lot of people have with herbalism, which is like, first you, you, you know, see people on Facebook asking questions about like, what's the good herb for headaches? And then someone says, fever few . And that's kind of the extent of the interaction. And in this case, it was more like, what earths did people work with? Well, we've got these like preserved burdock roots around, or I guess it would've been burdock , right? It would've been, I don't know , uh, yellow root or something like that. But , uh, or micella, something like this. But, but okay. So what does , what does that mean practically speaking? Like, how did they prepare it? What , what , like you said, what kind of doses did they take? Or how do you determine who's the best match for it, or that kind of thing? That's, that's hard to find, just looking at dirt. It's hard to find, just looking at Facebook. And so, like, people need to, to have a way to dig further in. And,
Speaker 2:You know , actually I was having a conversation with somebody about this a couple weeks ago. Um, and they are a, like a historian, a straight historian , um, mostly around like women's issues. Um, and with no, none of the, like, medical anthropology side of things, just like the actual history. And they were trying to make some statements about herbalism in history, and I was like , um, that's , uh, I love you. That's not actually accurate. Um, it's not actually possible for that to be accurate. And they were like, no, no, no, because I've studied history. I know it's true. I'm like, studying history is critically important. We need that. And also, you , you have to know something about phyto chemistry to recognize that, like, like there, there's, there's a big gap there that you , you don't have all the things. So , um, I , we need both sides. We need people to understand the history, but in order to understand the history, you also have to understand the phyto chemistry. And it really takes complete training in two , in two different disciplines to be able to get to the full story of like what they used to do, whatever that means. <laugh> , you know, <laugh> . Yeah,
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Kind
Speaker 3:A fr construct anyway. Right. But yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah , definitely .
Speaker 2:Okay. I just wanna state for the record right now that this podcast episode could be five hours long if we let it <laugh> . So maybe we should choose not to let it, but, wow, I would love to hear so many words about this. Um, but we have a lot of other things that we really wanna also talk to you about because , um, they're also interesting too. But, but wow. Right off the bat, super fascinating.
Speaker 3:Yeah. All right . Well, let's ask this then. Uh, did you, did you come into herbalism and be like, I am going to be a clinician. I'm gonna sit down with people, I'm gonna , I'm gonna help them figure out the right kind of herb? Or, or did you start in a, in a different direction and kind of find your way there over time? Like , how did that part happen ?
Speaker 2:I , I guess it's a
Speaker 4:Yes and no. It , I think it was a little bit of both. I think it was, you know, working in kind of a lab experience and also working kind of solo in some regard and doing the research, but also teaching and wanting to be able to teach a little bit more. So, so it's one of those situations where, you know, a person who doesn't have experience and then they're teaching it, it's, it's not as good. Right. <laugh> it's not as <laugh> , you know, it's challenging .
Speaker 2:It's , yeah ,
Speaker 4:It's challenging. So once you have the experience, you get all excited, now you wanna share that further, but now you actually wanna do more of that information, so, Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , it was a progression, so it didn't just happen overnight, but Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You , I mean, you're kind of singing our song here, talking about like, the impulse to teach as something that leads to the impulse to do clinical work. 'cause it's, it's all teaching as far as we're concerned, you know, like the way we talk about it, the way we talk about it, the way we teach about it to our students, but the way we talk about it to each individual client that comes in, you know, like right there on our, on our disclaimer form, it's like the purpose of this session is educational in nature. Like, we're here to teach you stuff, not tell you what to do. Kind of like what we say at the, in the reclaimer at the beginning, you know? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . I'm not here to like, tell people, do this, do that, take that, stop this other thing, <laugh> . But to say, here's what might happen if you do it. You know , here's what you should watch out for when you experiment with this, and these are the things we'd hope to see happen. And anyway, I'm talking too much, but
Speaker 2:I
Speaker 4:Don't ,
Speaker 2:I wanna jump on some, some of that thing too, about how, like, it's very spiraling necessarily, right? Because like, you learn a few things and either, and you teach them in one way or another, you teach them to your next door neighbor who's having problems with chronic headaches, and I don't know, I just learned something. I'm gonna tell you about it , um, and try to help you with it. Or you teach them because you're a professor, and so you , you try to integrate that into your curriculum, you know, or whatever else. But then, like, you hit the limit of what it is that you've mastered, and you're like, well, mastered is a fraught word, but you've hit the limit of, of what you've got , um, experientially. And then you're like, oops, gotta go get some more. Like, gotta , because, because really, like, like you said, you really can only effectively teach from your experience. It's extremely difficult to teach in a very, in a like, completely abstracted kind of way. Hmm . Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And they were personal reasons as well, especially learning more and getting more into my advanced studies with public health, my, you know, personal family members, my father in particular dying from things that I'm like, you know what I mean? It was a progression too , of just chronic illness, but very much preventable. And that was something that, you know, kind of, there's a little bit of anger involved in that. I think the more you understand. And there's definitely grief that comes with that. But, but it's also, how can I learn more to, to help my own family, to help myself. And then, you know, of course, once you're able to really get a grasp on the information to help the community. So there was definitely personal reasons around that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right . And you've been, you've been devoting more time to your, your clinical herbalism work lately? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I've transitioned to teach part-time so I could really pursue my clinical practice and really make that a focus. 'cause again, I'm able to really have what I think it more of an impact on the community and to help those individuals. So as cliche as this might sound, you know, to help one client at a time, it makes such a big difference. But I can still teach and work with the community too. So it's the best of both worlds, and it's really, that's where I need to be.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. You know, the, the sort of ideal that I sometimes have in mind when I'm doing client sessions is gonna teach this person some things to help their own body. They're gonna be able to share that with other people that , that are around them that may have similar problems. And then maybe they'll also get interested in liberalism a little more and be like, I wanna learn all of it now, <laugh> . Yeah . You know, just plant some, you know, herbalist seeds all over the, all over the, the state or all over the world. <laugh>. That'd be good.
Speaker 2:You know, I wanna , I wanna grab onto something you said there , um, because it's also just really good business advice. Um, like you mentioned, like that it's nice to help individuals like intensively through their needs, but also to be teaching as well, and to kind of balance that. Um, so in terms of like how that nourishes you, but also how that allows you to nourish the community both at the, like, personal and the broader scale. Um, but also from a business perspective, I think that a lot of people, you know, a lot of people don't have a lot of experience with being self-employed. Um, and because the model is usually like you have a job and that job provides everything for you. And when you're self-employed, the model that you have set up for yourself is actually like super fantastic if you, like, you are doing two things that are important to you that are very overlapping and woven together. Um, but it's two different, like revenue streams. And so on one hand, like this is always a little bit challenging as herbalists, because like, our primary goal is to help people, but also in order to help people, we have to put on our own oxygen mask. And that means being able to pay our bills and buy some food and stuff like that. Um, and so it's not callous to talk about how we fund ourselves. And that model of having, like I teach, you know, at the university part-time, and I see clients in the rest of my time, that allows you to have support from two, from the community in two different ways for the work that you do. Hmm . Um, and so I just wanna draw attention to that as like an intentional business model. Um, and , and that it's a good thing. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah . W you know, whether it's it's that way long term or whether it's a , a transition phase that you move through Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you or , or like other people doing this to , to be like, all right , well I have a nine to five job, I wanna do herbalism, and can I like, do some days a week? Can I cut down the hours so that I have time to devote to herbalism as well? Um, yeah. But I'm not
Speaker 2:Hanging out there without
Speaker 3:A net whenever it's possible. That's, that's nice. You know, that's better. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Yeah . Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , right. Hmm . Well , you know, I'm curious, like everybody, everybody practices a little bit different. Everybody kind of has one or another focus in the way that they, that they work. Like, I'm always excited if people are interested to talk about movement and like exercise and that kind of stuff. 'cause that's been a lot of my, my interest apart from herbalism in terms of like human health and holistic health and so on. Um, but I wonder for you if there's been anything in particular about your own life experience that's kinda shaped the way that you do your work or the way you look about how you talk to people? Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 4:<affirmative>. Yeah. Well, a big reason why I was drawn to the program is 'cause it's holistic. And that's being a medical anthropologist that's being in public health. It's so holistic to begin with. So that was a big draw for me. But yes, there's personal experiences too. Um, you know, a big driver for public health too is now on family issues. But I had a bout of severe acne when I was an adolescent. And then in adulthood, when you're a public speaker is just excruciating <laugh> . And then from there, you know, there's also burnout. I was going to grad school, the commute time was about three hours, and I was working two, sometimes three jobs. So it was like, you know what? I want this so bad, I'm gonna make it work. And that's always been my, my way of doing it. But burnout was definitely real, so I had to deal with that. And health repercussions. I've had skin cancer, you know, I recently gave birth. So working with that and postpartum and all that stuff has been , um, definitely an experience. Lyme disease caretaker. So all of these experiences really do inform what I'm interested in studying, but also how I practice as well, coming with that experience, but from a holistic lens.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, you've never had the, like , um, new herbalist problem of giving people too many things to accomplish in a single day if they were like a superpowered , um, kind of a metahuman, you know, who could like bend time or whatever. Like you've, you've had realistic protocols for people kind of right from the beginning. And I think that's probably based on your experience of like living with chronic illness and Mm-Hmm . You know, building up yourself to, to feel better, you know, as you work through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, a lot of new herbalists when they're starting off working with clients. Um, okay. You don't have to be a new herbalist. This is actually, you know, this could continue to be a challenge, but, you know, you kind of wanna, you, you can see all the things that would be really helpful for your client. And so you kind of like wanna just give them this entire stack, like one of those cartoon stacks of pancakes that's like 10 feet tall <laugh> , and you're just like, I just wanna give you this whole stack of all the things that would help you. And , um, but that's like, so overwhelming for a client. And I, I think that that experience, those , that constellation of experiences that you have had in terms of like, dealing with health issues and also being driven to, to learn, to grow, to achieve in service to your community. Like those, those two parallel tracks that probably butted heads many times, <laugh> , um, I , I think all of that created a lot of experience in you that helps you to , um, tailor your suggestions that it , you know, a much smaller stack of pancakes is what I'm trying to say. <laugh>,
Speaker 4:Right. And it's buildable. So you wanna give them stuff that they can do , or in my case that I could do waking up out of bed Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> be able to do that and feel empowered and let those lifestyle strategies build upon one another. And you just keep building as you feel more comfortable, and as you get more energy, as you're able to free up more resources. So,
Speaker 3:Yeah. And it, you know, it's, it's sort of the perspective of like, oh wait , I don't have to do it all in the first, in the first conversation. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> <laugh> , you know,
Speaker 4:And you shouldn't
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. It turns out right. <laugh>
Speaker 4:<laugh> . Yeah .
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking of your style there , um, so for folks who don't know in our school, when you get to the point of clinical mentorship , um, you start off observing faculty, taking clients, and then talking about it afterwards. And then you, when you feel ready, you start seeing clients. But one of us is always watching, and then we talk about it afterwards. Um, and then once you feel like really confident and, and we see that you're like rocking it, then you start taking clients by yourself. But we still talk about it afterwards. The talk about it afterwards. Part is always there. That's
Speaker 3:Important for everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so, so that will give a little context. Now, when I say that I know you can work with basically anyone, because I've been watching you do it, you know, like I actually have, have with my eyes watched you work with all different kinds of people, all different kinds of, of health issues and goals and, and all that stuff. Yeah .
Speaker 3:In including the , the situations which happen a lot as an herbalist , where like they write down one thing on their intake form <laugh>, and , and you think that's what the conversation is gonna be about. And then you get there in the, in the actual session and it's whole , whole different problem. Maybe more complicated or maybe there's a bunch of confounding factors that were never mentioned before. And we've seen you like, get into a situation like that and be like, no problem, here we go,
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Right.
Speaker 3:Like one second of processing, and then you're just, you're just all set. Yeah .
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So that's fantastic. Okay. But now that we've established that we know you work well with all different kinds of people who are your favorite people to work with? Like, when you get a particular kind of client and you're just like, goody , this is my favorite issue. Who is that person?
Speaker 4:I, I wouldn't say it's one issue in particular, but I love working with women in what I call like the phases. So especially <laugh> , a young woman transitioning, you know, she has her period, how do I begin to support myself? I'm nourishing foods , begin to come up with lifestyle of practices to build confidence, which I think is really important. And then, you know, the phases moving on through there, through motherhood. So birth and postpartum, that was such a beautiful experience with , you know, from my personal experience and just to , again, I'm interweaving my own experience through the people, or not through the people, but you know, working with them because I have that insight. But yeah . Birth postpartum. And then, you know, our real reality is menopause coming up. So I wanna make sure that I have the information that it's just going to be another beautiful transition. As long as I have the information to <laugh> , it's psychologically that's how I'm gonna go in. You know, listen ,
Speaker 2:That's a great way to go in. Yeah , yeah , yeah . But as a perimenopausal woman, I will tell you there are many parts that are not beautiful <laugh>.
Speaker 4:But you know, that's something that I'm actively doing a lot of research with and, you know, and excited to work with those clients.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.
Speaker 3:It's an interesting, you know, f frame to, to look at it in because it sort of, it sort of encourages you to see the similarities in these, like otherwise very different , uh, periods in life. Yeah. You know, like how is the woman going through menopause? Similar to the, the teenager I would like to say. But I guess maybe younger than that, you know, having the period for the first time, like what are the connections there in including like what kind of herbs might make sense, <laugh> , you know? Yeah . For both people.
Speaker 2:It's just be forever when you're basically <laugh>.
Speaker 4:Yeah ,
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Intriguing.
Speaker 4:And I understand that everybody's situation is very, very unique. So part of that too, it's exciting to find the creativity and how other people experience it differently. That's also very, very interesting to me. Hmm .
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love that. Like, we could just pause this and I, when I'm editing, we could just pause this and then I could just repeat that sentence, because that was really good <laugh> . So if you're listening to this, you can just back up a little bit and listen to Ash say that again about how everybody's experience of all these things is actually different because your bodies are different. Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Really good stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2:<affirmative> . Um, okay. So you're an herbalist and you have finished your mentorship and you have gotten your recognition as a registered herbalist with the American Herbalist Guild. And you have had a full and robust career and you have helped everyone in your town and all the surrounding towns and across the nation and, and probably internationally. And now you're 70 years old, maybe you're 80. What, how do you want people to remember you as a practitioner? What do you want to be your legacy in the herbal community when you're on the other end of, of the career that you're launching now? Well, the continuation of the launch of the career, I mean, because this is just weaving deeper and deeper into things you've been working on for a long time. Hmm .
Speaker 4:Yeah. I would say an educator and, you know, an herbalist, but somebody who really expands what we perceive or what the, the health toolbox. So I think for a very long time, especially my background in public health, there was just the vaccine or there was just this, or you know, the popup hill kind of thing where many people don't understand. There's many different things. I think, again, lifestyle has definitely become more mainstream within the last 10 years. However, there's still a long way to go. So to let people know that there are multiple different tools that they can call upon. And herbalism being, I think, a really big part of it. And that's still, I live in rural Connecticut, so even when I bring up herbalism here, it's not, some people like you work with cannabis
Speaker 2:<laugh> all
Speaker 4:The time. That's not all I do all the time. Yes . Uhhuh . Yep . And that's really where the conversation kind of stops until I open up those, those conversation doors. So I really want to, to spend time and to really educate people that there are options.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Nice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure. Well, listen, you know, we are interviewing you in part 'cause you're one of our students and this makes a really good opportunity to, to share a little bit about our clinical program. 'cause you know, it , uh, better than, I don't know, most, most folks apart from us, <laugh>
Speaker 2:Having ,
Speaker 3:Having been in it for a while now .
Speaker 2:Yeah . Been in it and , and , and on the tail end of it now. Yep . Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, you know , uh, because of what you've learned through that and, and through your work , um, I wonder if you have any advice to share for other people who are interested in being herbalists , uh, maybe pursuing clinical training or something like that. What will you tell them
Speaker 4:At the top of the list? I would say time management. This is always going to be a very intensive practice, but in the best possible way. I mean, most, I guess I can say from my personal experience, I don't wanna speak for anyone else, but if you're going into clinical herbalism for myself, you are invested. You wake up, you interweave herbs within your every day . So as you both say, living the protocol, that's part of it. But with time management. So you're really building in time to do live the protocol. Yeah. And you're doing your research. And as you do more of the research, as you live more of the protocol, you begin to understand avenues of creativity, which is so beneficial if you're working with clients. 'cause there's likes, there's dislikes, there's other health issues, there's issues of financial accessibility, time accessibility that you have to take in consideration. So until you really start doing this to see what's involved, you're lacking.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:We, so you mentioned live the protocol , um, for folks who are, are not clinical students with us, <laugh> , um, live the protocol is a bumper sticker motto thing that we use really regularly. And the, it , it is like a reminder of an exercise that we encourage everyone to do. And so if you're listening to this, we encourage you to do it too. And that is whether you are a clinical herbalist or a student, or you're just a person who likes plants and you're trying to help your neighbor or your mom or your whoever, whatever advice you give someone, do it yourself. So if you come up with a tea blend for somebody, make extra so that you can drink it too. That's how you learn that it tastes terrible. <laugh>, you need to adjust the formulation. Or if you give somebody a whole protocol, like you're starting to work as a clinical herbalist and you're talking to someone and you've come up with a plan and you've got your stack of pancakes that you wanna give to them, and each pancake is its own suggestion. Okay. You have now given that to them, you've written it down, you've made it very clear, like all the things. But you do it also for at least a week, but a little longer is even better because that's when you find out if what you told someone is valid, accessible, actually achievable. Achievable and <crosstalk> . Yeah. If it tastes good, if it's, if it is, if it works, you know, I mean like, okay, the things that you're giving to somebody else, maybe you're helping somebody , um, who has fibromyalgia. You don't have fibromyalgia. So to some extent you can't necessarily know if, if it works like Right . Yeah . With quoting marks around it. But you can know if it tastes good, if it's reasonable. You wanted them to drink three quarts of tea. Can you drink three quarts of tea in a day? Just because you can, doesn't mean it's easy for somebody else to do, but if you can't do it, then they definitely can't do it. You know, different, all , all those different kinds of things, whatever it is, this is how you learn to refine your protocols and to refine your suggestions. And that, oops , I've been telling somebody to do this thing, but actually it costs like $50 a week to do that thing. Or like, whatever it is. Um, because there's so many suggestions that are great and helpful. And if we're, again, if we're only thinking about it abstractly, then we don't necessarily know the impact that that's having. Uh, so live the protocol. That's what, that's what that bumper sticker is.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah . Yeah. Nice. Thanks for calling that back to us. Yeah.
Speaker 2:<laugh>
Speaker 4:<laugh> .
Speaker 3:Um, well, okay. And then you've been studying with us for quite a while now, and I wonder like what , what was the best part or your favorite part ?
Speaker 2:<laugh>
Speaker 4:That is such a hard question because again, I, all my interests are, they're holistic. The body is not broken down into systems. Yeah . There's just so much. I, I love the way the program is laid out though, to, to put it in chunks like that, to focus on perhaps a cardiovascular or digestive or whatever it may be. But it's, it's also interconnected. So there's not anything that I was like, wow, this is boring. I thought everything was extremely exciting,
Speaker 2:<laugh>.
Speaker 4:Um, I love the guides, I love the videos . So for anybody who needs the written, it's there. If anybody just likes the video and the, the visual, it's there. But also too , to have support all the way through to ask questions, to be part of a online community as well as, you know, having face-to-face connections is just so wonderful. And that was something I wasn't necessarily expecting when I first enrolled in the program. It has been amazing. And I can't imagine finding this anywhere else. I just can't <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Um, I'm glad that that is one of your favorite parts. 'cause it's also one of my favorite parts. Um, we, we , um, really prioritize trying to get to know our students and like, we read everything in the community. Like if anybody posts anything, if it's a post, if it's a comment, anything at all, we read it. Yeah . If, you know, like , uh, I try to read every single student question, even if it's a day that Emmy is answering the questions or that RIN is, or that Kenton, Emmy and Kenton help us answer student questions. And we sort of have a rotational schedule. But I try to read every question anyway. 'cause I just wanna know like, what is everybody thinking about? What is, you know, and then I, you know, q and a is so awesome. And then when we get to mentorship and we get to like, hang out for two hours in person every week in tiny little groups, and that's really good. All of that stuff is the real, I mean, okay, I need to do some administrative work and some marketing and someone like all these other things too. But that's the stuff that's the most important to me. Yeah. So I'm pretty excited that, that that is also so helpful for you.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And of course, you know, having real clinic work and working with people and individuals, I mean, that's huge. Um, so all of everything that you both have done has been incredible.
Speaker 3:Nice. Well, thank you so
Speaker 2:Much. Thank you . <laugh> . That's very kind .
Speaker 3:Um , okay. And then, you know, when, based on your experiences with us and, you know, your own, your own like self-directed study and so on. Well,
Speaker 2:And also all your study before you even got to us. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Yeah . You know, the whole PhD situation, <laugh>
Speaker 2:Ly and also your experience as a professor Uhhuh . I know maybe, I don't know, like, like I think I, I knew you were a professor, but I, I didn't know it until we were pretty far down the line. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and not like, it's stressful at all to be a professor for a professor <laugh> , you know, <laugh> <laugh> ,
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. <laugh> . But you know, like a lot of people are out there looking for, for clinical training or they're like, I want to be an herbalist. I wanna, I wanna do clinical herbalism. Um, and ours isn't the only program out there. It's not even the only good one out there, <laugh>, just to be, just to be honest. Uh, but I wonder if there's something you would suggest to other folks who are looking for clinical training, like Mm-Hmm . What's important? What might they not think of , uh, in that search?
Speaker 4:Sure. Um, regional, much of my background was working with Southern New England plants and indigenous plants. So to have also a program that highlights and gives me more information how to work with the plants that grow around me was certainly an importance. Hmm . Um, but yeah, I think there was so much too . A big part of this is both of you have decades of experience. It's not like <laugh> walking into , you know , her program with people regurgitating information. This is very different. This is very science steeped experience, steeped, there's a lot going on here. But also too, it isn't the boilerplate model of herbalism. This herb is used for this. That was something that I was trying to avoid. I really wanna understand how plants play in the human experience. How does that look like in a clinical , clinical, you know Yeah . Clinic, herbal clinic. And that was something that I was really going for. So if I was choosing herb school and they said this herb was good for this, I could get that from a book
Speaker 2:<laugh>
Speaker 4:That anywhere else. So the stuff that I have learned in this program was nothing that I could get from a book. It was real hands-on real world experience. And I think that's key when you're choosing herbalists to work with or to learn from mentorship.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I totally agree with you. There is, is there's so much copy pasta out there, like, you know, just like saying the same words over and over again or saying it because you heard someone else say it. But there are herbalists who are teachers who are teaching from their own personal experience and who don't teach things until they have tried it for however long themselves. Um, and yeah, I think that's that . I , I agree that the , to me that's the most important part in choosing a school is, is that you are finding herbalists who are teaching specifically from their experience and preferably like an herbalist that you can have a relationship with and be learning from that experience and not just like, you know, a big group of, like, you can go to conferences for that, you know, <laugh> . Yeah. Yeah .
Speaker 3:Conferences can be good. Yeah. Yeah. That's real nice. Well, that , that was also some very kind words. Thank you so much. Um , yeah. Um ,
Speaker 4:Well , I , I meant every one of them <laugh>. Ah , <laugh> .
Speaker 3:But listen, we shouldn't , uh, we shouldn't like, let you , uh, go , uh, and end the interview until we've asked. What's your favorite herb? The easiest question for any herb <laugh> , uh, to , to answer. I know . What's, what's your, what's your, like one singular favorite herb that's best for all problems in the entire universe? <laugh> , or maybe just the one that jumps to mind today? <laugh>
Speaker 4:Burdock is one that definitely jumps to mind. Yeah. Burdock is a root, it's grounding. I tend to live in my hu
Speaker 3:Ah
Speaker 2:Hmm .
Speaker 4:I also like the taste of burdock I'll , if I find it in my local co-op, I'll actually prepare and saute with carrots, so I'll actually eat it. Mm-Hmm . And then I do work with the powder quite often. My morning coffee is a process, but a good one. I enjoy it <laugh> . So I'm putting Burdock powder in there. I got my cocoa, I've got my ghee . I've, you know, it's a decaf coffee, but I love it if I don't wake up in the morning and have my burdock coffee, it's just not gonna be a good day. Hmm . So I've grown to love and crave the flavor, but it also helps me just get the day started, help digest it when those was really nourishing fats. So I, I really, really just love burdock .
Speaker 2:Hmm . That's so
Speaker 3:Awesome. Nice. That's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Uh, okay. Well, to build on that , if you could be any plant, you'd just be like, I'm done ing, we've had it <laugh> , I'm gonna be a plant now. If you could be any plant, who would you be and why?
Speaker 4:I love thistle. I've always been drawn to thistle, whether I'm traveling abroad or I'm home. What , whenever I run into thistle, I'm just like, whoa. Cool.
Speaker 3:Did you catch the attention, huh? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:It does. It's just, and it has even both thistle, you know , around us, but it has a growth pattern in those kind of prickly leaves. It seems sturdy, it has some spines. It's just a little pop of color. It's such an interesting plant to me.
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> .
Speaker 4:But also when I start to feel weakness, I tend to really feel it in the liver. And that's, it's always been a great ally for me to have. Mm . So that's what I would go with. I think
Speaker 2:Thistle . Um , I love that. Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 3:Nice thistle demands your attentiveness, you know? Yeah. You can't like blunder past a thistle without, without seeing all of the edges that it may have <laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah . You can't just grab it. You have to. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, so you're, you're obviously more than an herbalist, you know, like , uh, you're a professor and you're a mom and you're other things as well, but what's your, when you're not, when you're not doing herbal stuff, <laugh>, what are , what are some other things you enjoy? Like, what's your other favorite thing to do?
Speaker 4:I am obsessed. This no sounds so dorky, but I'm obsessed with ritual and agenda books and creating, for a long time I've been, go, go, go work, work, work. I have to remind myself to slow down and begin to pencil in times of enjoying life, enjoying things in general. So agenda books , I'll pencil in time to harvest, time to work with plants, time to just take a nap, you name it. Yeah . Actually, I have a whole bookshelf of just books on, I dunno if you can see those building rituals. Nice . And I'll just pull these out and remind myself to slow down. But agenda books too are just, I've always been fascinated with how successful people spend their time. Mm-Hmm . But also too, with doing laundry, how do I make that more exciting? Just making the mundane, more purposeful, you know? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> instead of just kind of going in and doing day in , day out without really being aware. So that, that's a big part of it in reading. So
Speaker 3:That's cool. I think it , I think it is connected, you know, like a lot of times when, especially for hmm . Mental and emotional , uh, troubles. If I'm gonna suggest somebody to work with a tincture blend, it's not just like, okay, you know, take two droppers of this three times a day, but my instructions will involve, like, you're gonna make a little mini ritual for this. Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , even if it just means like going into the break room or the bathroom or whatever you need to, to find a moment to yourself and like, breathe in and out for a few minutes or a few breaths if that's all time you've got, take your dose, remember why you're working with this herb. Remember what your like projection of better health is gonna look like. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Yes . A couple more deep breaths. And then like, all right , now I go back to the world . And that change in like, taking it between that way versus like, I grab it, I squirted I go back to what I was doing is enormous. It makes a huge impact in how successful those herbs are for people. Hmm .
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah . I also love that , um, you know, normally when we think about like day planners or, or agenda books or whatever, it's about how much can you cram into it and optimizing your time, and how can you make sure that not a moment is wasted and by not a moment is wasted. Of course, I'm referring to productivity, right. Because that is the standard focus of our culture. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, and I imagine with your background that there have been times in your past that, that you interfaced with day planners in that, in that manner. Um, and I mean, I also as well , um, but I love, I, I love the like, act of intentional rebellion of like shifting this tool out of like holding you captive to productivity and into making your life more meaningful and creating space for taking care of yourself. Yeah . And , um, I think that is a super radical act that I am going to need to think about Yeah. For myself. Yeah. <laugh>
Speaker 4:And it's, it's a big part of once you pencil in that time of enjoyment, you realize, you know, it's okay to take that time because I still have time to do A, B, and C. But also keeping it simple, so it takes that anxiety out of the relaxation part.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah . That's nice. That's nice. Yeah. It's no fun to be like, okay, now's my break time . Uh , I'm anxious about everything that's not happening. <laugh>.
Speaker 2:Right , right .
Speaker 3:Yes . Yeah. It's way to get through that. That's cool.
Speaker 2:Yes. You can put your blue var vein right next to the agenda book <laugh> .
Speaker 4:<laugh> .
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 3:Uh, okay. Simple question. T or tincture
Speaker 4:TA hundred percent
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Oh , <laugh> . That was easy for you. <laugh> . Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I love tea . It's something too. It's part of the mindful experience in building ritual you can build. For me, it's easier to build a ritual around tea because it's, it's with me, it's a constant reminder. It's always in my hand for the most part. So <laugh>,
Speaker 2:<laugh>
Speaker 4:And I, I tend to get dehydrated, so it's a good reminder to stay hydrated.
Speaker 2:So yeah, <laugh> . Nice. That's real nice. All right , well, thinking about the blue ver vein next to the day planner, I'm wondering what is your favorite herb because you like it and what is your favorite herb? Because you need it, and they may not be the same herb <laugh> .
Speaker 4:Yeah. I have to go with cilantro. It's another one of, it's up there with burdock as far as the plant I need on a daily basis. Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2:<affirmative> . That's awesome.
Speaker 4:And I know a lot of people don't like it. I think this is either a love or hate situation, but I,
Speaker 3:Yeah .
Speaker 4:Yeah. But I'll take a handful of fresh cilantro that I get from the grocery store, put it in blender with coconut cream matcha and any other powder. Sometimes it's Astro gonda powder, and really just make a nourishing drink. I have one of those every single day. I crave it. <laugh>.
Speaker 2:Wow .
Speaker 4:It's , it's awesome . I just love the taste and it's, it gets me going. It's just, I love the cooling. It just has a refreshing taste to it. So I, I'd have to go with cilantro there.
Speaker 2:Hmm . That's awesome. Nice.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And then for an herb, because I need it, I would say vanilla.
Speaker 3:Vanilla.
Speaker 2:I love that
Speaker 4:More of the need for me is , has been a switch to more like these euphoric herbs. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> to remind myself to enjoy more, to slow down, to just enjoy, which it does not come easy to me. So having vanilla has been a big reminder to just enjoy and savor. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . I also have a 16 month old child, so I'm trying to remind myself to also savor these moments and to spend that time with her, which is, again, for somebody who's always worked work , work, vanilla has been such a great ally, just to remind myself to, to take it easy to enjoy what's around myself. So,
Speaker 3:Ah , that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Well, now I want tacos and ice cream.
Speaker 4:<laugh> , vanilla ,
Speaker 3:<inaudible> , <laugh> , <laugh> . Uh , very good. Very good. So you, you, you're a , a public health , uh, uh, expert. We're gonna , we're gonna say, and um, sometimes in public health conversations, you hear people say things like, you know what, everybody has high cholesterol in this country. We should just put statins in the water. Right. And I'm not on board with that particular intervention, but if we just take that idea of what should we just put in the water? Like what could we just give to everybody? What would, what would you suggest? What do you think about herbs there?
Speaker 4:I would say grocery store herbs, they , they don't have to be exotic to work, but things that people have easy access to. So dandelion grains are pretty accessible. Cilantro, if you're like me and love cilantro, parsley, basil, and make pesto put pesto on everything, everybody wins . If they have blue green ,
Speaker 3:This was a great idea.
Speaker 2:Does put pesto on everything . Everything .
Speaker 4:Yeah . I mean , most things and the more greens you get, the better.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2:<affirmative> awesome.
Speaker 3:I love a good pesto. Yeah. I love it. I love it with nettle. I love it with , um, uh, with garlic mustard. Wow.
Speaker 2:I mean, you're pulling the garlic mustard anyway, so might as well eat it .
Speaker 4:Yeah .
Speaker 3:When you make pesto, what, what are your preferred nuts?
Speaker 4:I'd use walnuts.
Speaker 3:Ah , okay.
Speaker 2:Hmm mm-Hmm. <affirmative> nice.
Speaker 3:Sometime like three or four years ago, pine nuts got about 20 times as expensive as they used to be. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Yes . We haven't had them for a minute 'cause of that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I just wanna put a plug out there that , um, pesto doesn't have to have cheese in it. Oh yeah. Um, we can't eat dairy, so our pesto doesn't ever have cheese. And yet there is something about pesto that just feels inherently cheesy. And I think it's like the way the nuts and the greens and the oil, like somehow all like the oil
Speaker 3:And salty in the Yeah . Yeah.
Speaker 2:Something. Um, yeah. So just for anybody saying, well, that advice won't work for me, it will , you don't have to have cheese in your pesto.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. There's also, if you like it a little bit more on the citrus side, doing a little bit of lemon zest just to freshen it up a little bit. Or you could also do the nutritional yeast.
Speaker 2:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Oh yeah. That would give you that cheesy feel too. That flavor. Yeah. Um, also, I kind of feel like people think pesto is for fancy , um, but all the herbs that you mentioned are not expensive. And some of them you can just go outside and pick in your yard. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> as long as you don't spray your yard with weird things or your dog doesn't like whatever.
Speaker 4:<laugh> .
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Um, and so it doesn't have to be for fancy. You can have pest out anytime . Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And we should, yeah. All right . Uh, well, we know how to, how to reach you, but probably all of our listeners don't <laugh>. So give us some details, give us some social media, some websites , uh,
Speaker 2:Yeah. And before you do, let me just interject here that, so Ashley is , um, still in mentorship with us as she's collecting hours towards her application to become a registered herbalist, but you also have your own practice and people can just schedule right with you. Um, and we still advise on our students private clients, on their clients that they're working on through the school. Just anybody, you know, you need some advice, we're here. Um, so , uh, so just so that people know that they can just book right with you if they want to. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> How do they do that?
Speaker 4:So, I have a website, HW Apothecary, and the apothecary spent like a , the French word for apothecary, but if you did HW Apothecary, it would still pop up and direct you to my website. So , um, I have my on , we'll put a
Speaker 3:Link in . We'll , we'll put a link in the show notes so people can click their way there. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4:Yeah . Awesome. <laugh> . Yeah . And then I also,
Speaker 2:Let me spell it real quick too, just in case somebody is not in a place where they can click, it's HW and then APO the French way. A-P-O-T-H-I-C-A-I-R e.com .
Speaker 4:Thank you. Yeah. And then my social media, same thing. It's HW Apothecary for Facebook on Instagram. I am more active on Instagram though. Yeah .
Speaker 2:Where is the, where did the French influence come from?
Speaker 4:Uh , my background, my heritage. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2:<affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 3:Cool. Yeah , Sabian . Uh, great. So yeah, people will be able to find you there. They can book some sessions. They can keep you busy 'cause you're totally not busy enough already. Um , I
Speaker 2:Also wanna point out that Ash writes a really great newsletter. Um , it's true. We encourage all of our clinical students to be building their newsletters. And one way that we encourage them to do that is to , they put me on the newsletter mailing list and then I write back like, there's all these things that I would say to comment on this newsletter, <laugh> . And so when I say that Ashley's newsletter is great, it's 'cause I read her newsletter every time it goes out. Um, so it's great. You should sign up for it. And yeah, you can do that at the link in the show notes or@hwapothecary.com.
Speaker 3:That's what, alright. Um, any closing thoughts from you?
Speaker 4:No, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you both again,
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time to, to chat with us and , um, I guess we'll see you again at our next round table ,
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Yeah. Yeah. And at Free Clinic , uh, the first Wednesday in September. Mm . Yeah, let's come , this is coming right up. Yeah. So for all the folks listening, if you are interested in becoming a clinical herbalist, we need you. The whole country needs you. In fact, actually the whole world needs you. We do have clinical herbal students in , um, almost every continent on almost every continent. Um,
Speaker 3:We're looking at you Antarctica. Yeah .
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Yeah .
Speaker 3:I know you've got internet down there these days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. <laugh> . We could have a student in Antarctica if, if , if you're listening. Um, right. So , um, the thing is that there's too much work for just us and Ashley. We, there needs to be more of us. We cannot see all the clients that need to see herbalists. So if all of this appeals to you, then check out our Clinical Herbalist program@commonwealthherbs.com. Um, and all of our online courses. In fact, you can see the whole catalog@online.commonwealthherbs.com.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . That's it. That's it everybody. That's it . Thanks for listening. We'll be back , uh, soon with some more holistic oralism podcast for you. Until then, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, drink some tea, drink some tea, and make some pesto.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yes, <laugh> . Thanks again, Ashley. Bye. Bye.