Herbalists' Views on the Top-Selling Herbs (Part 1): Psyllium, Elderberry, Turmeric, Ashwagandha

This episode begins an intermittent series we’ll be doing this year, covering the top-selling herbs in the United States and giving you our thoughts about them. From the perspective of a practicing herbalist, these herbs are frequently pigeon-holed into very narrow ranges of application – the “what is it good for” answers are quite limited! 

The Herbal Market Report from the American Botanical Council comes out every year, with data about herbal supplement sales for the prior year. Check it out and take a look at the “mainstream” and “natural channel” best-seller lists – you might be surprised at what’s on there!

If you’re an herbalist, you should be well-educated about the herbs people take most frequently. You should know what’s popular, and why. You should know how to talk to people about these herbs, how to correct misconceptions, how to offer more effective alternatives, and which ones are worth the money. We’re hoping this series will help you do that!

If you’re new to herbalism – yay, we get first crack at forming your opinion of these herbs! 😄 More importantly, this will serve as an introduction to marketing literacy in the realm of herbal supplements, as well as some good materia medica study.

In today’s episode we cover psyllium, elder berry, turmeric, and ashwagandha.

1. Psyllium – Plantago ovata

• HHP 205: Herbs A-Z: Pinus & Plantago
• Plantain: Herb of the Week

2. Elder berry – Sambucus nigra, S. canadensis

• Elder: Herb of the Week
• HHP 216: Herbs A-Z: Sambucus & Sassafras
• Elderberry and Cytokine Storms

3. Turmeric – Curcuma longa

• HHP 184: Herbs A-Z: Crataegus & Curcuma
• HHP 149: Our Top Topical Herbs for Acne

4. Ashwagandha – Withania somnifera

• HHP 226: Herbs A-Z: Withania & Zanthoxylum
• Ashwagandha: Herb of the Week
• HHP 155: Equinox Thoughts On Balance & Amphoteric Herbs

Whether you’re a brand-new beginner or an herbalist with experience, it’s always helpful to study the herbs in depth! Our comprehensive presentation of herbal allies is in our Holistic Herbalism Materia Medica course. It includes detailed profiles of 100 medicinal herbs!

Like all our offerings, this self-paced online video course comes with free access to twice-weekly live Q&A sessions with us, lifetime access to current & future course material, open discussion threads integrated in each lesson, an active student community, and more!

Our theme music is “Wings” by Nicolai Heidlas.

Transcript

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Hi, I'm Ryn and I'm here at Commonwealth Holistic Urbanism in Boston, Massachusetts, and on the internet everywhere. Thanks to the power of the podcast , uh, this week I am flying solo and I'm doing a presentation for you about how herbalist look at and work with, and think about some of the, the top selling herbs or the best selling herbs in, in a commercial context. So, at the grocery store, at a supplement shop , uh, online sales, things like that. What are the products that people are buying the most of and why? What are they doing with them? And do the people who sell those products, those supplements, those items , uh, market them the same way that herbalist? Think about them in a traditional context or in the context of contemporary herbalism the way we work now. Um, those are some of the <laugh>, some of the topics that we're gonna be , uh, addressing here today. Uh, so before I jump in, I just wanna give a quick reminder that we are not doctors. We are herbalist and holistic health educators. The ideas discussed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice. No state or federal authority licenses herbalists in the United States. So these discussions are for educational purposes only. We wanna remind everybody that good health doesn't mean the same thing for every person. Good health doesn't exist as one objective standard. It's influenced by your individual needs, experiences, and goals. So, keep in mind that we're not attempting to present a single dogmatic right way that you should adhere to. Everyone's body is different. So the things we're talking about may or may not apply directly to you, but we hope they'll give you some new information to think about and some ideas to research and experiment with. Further finding your way to better health is both your right and your own personal responsibility. This doesn't mean you're alone on the journey, and it doesn't mean that you're to blame for your current state of health, but it does mean that the final decision, when you're considering any course of action, whether it's discussed on the internet or prescribed by a physician, that's always your choice to make. Alright , so , um, why, why this topic at all <laugh>? Um, the, the interest in this , uh, for me kind of began when we started teaching pharmacy students. Um, if you've been a follower of the podcast for a while , then you may know already that in addition to our own online herb school , uh, which you can find@commonwealthherbs.com , uh, in addition to that, one of the things we do , uh, for work is we teach what are called a e rotations , uh, a PPE, advanced Pharmacy Practicum Experience. Um, and so these are students who are in their sixth year of training in pharmacy school, and , uh, they can take an elective , uh, and spend six weeks learning herbalism from us. Um, and so we've done that in different ways over the years, but it's been a , a long-term thing. And as , uh, uh, starting like 11, 12 years ago is when we began with that. And , um, you know, talking to , uh, those students and thinking about what their career was gonna be like , uh, just realizing that there's a lot of herbs that are very popular commercially speaking, but , uh, weren't actually super important to our clinical practice. Uh, or they weren't herbs that we, we personally, ourselves, like me and Katya focused on very much , uh, in the work we do, and then others that we know very, very well and work with very, very frequently, oftentimes in quite different ways or other, or expanded or additional ways in comparison to the ones that are promoted , uh, in, in the , the product packaging or , um, you know, in, in kind of marketing terminology. Um, so , uh, you know, I started talking to those pharmacy students, or we both did really , uh, talking to them about those plants and talking about the way that , uh, we think about them and how to compare and contrast that to the kind of commercial presentations for the plants. Um, and in most cases, really just to try to expand away from something that's been pigeonholed, right? Take this herb for that problem. Take turmeric for inflammation, or take it for joint pain. Uh, take , uh, take this one as a laxative, take this one as an immune booster, you know , um, and trying to teach traditional herbalism, which sees these plants as much broader than any single effect or any single action , uh, like those. Um, and , uh, as time has gone on, I've gotten interested in this topic even further, and , um, tried to , uh, tried to get a broader sense of, you know , what's going on with herbalism in this commercial realm. Um, what are, again, what are the plants that are most popular , um, or that people are most excited about? And also how that changes , uh, based on world events. Uh, for instance, when Covid came around, there was suddenly a , a greater than usual increase , uh, of interest in elderberry and other , uh, immune , uh, herbs and, and remedies , um, for obvious reasons, right? Uh, but we do see shifts in the herbs that are most popular , um, or most , uh, most , uh, you know, most, well, well sold <laugh> , I guess you could say , um, over the years. And as time goes by , um, one of the key things that has , uh, been helpful in tracking this kind of information is , uh, a market report. It's the herbal market report. It's put out by the American Botanical Council, and it comes out every year. Um, and there they have data about herbal supplement sales for the prior year. Um , and , uh, that's something that I've been following for a long time, and always interested to see like, oh, what's the number one herb this year? And how, how is El elderberry doing? Did Ashwagandha go up or down in , in the rankings? You know, stuff like that. Um, so it's an interesting report, and I've, I've got a link to it in the show notes. Um, and it'll be good , uh, as you listen to this episode and , uh, others, 'cause this is gonna become a , a series of episodes. I'm not gonna cover everything today , uh, but , uh, as you listen to these, it'll be good to have looked at the report, checked out the lists , um, at least when you, when you look at it, you'll notice a couple of things , um, that they include in there. Um, one of them is that there's actually two lists. One is the so-called mainstream channel, and then the other is the so-called natural channel. Um, and we'll, we'll talk about the differences between those in a minute. Uh , but , uh, again, it is, it is an interesting way to see what people are buying, what people are wanting, <laugh>, you know. Um, and to step back a moment, the, the reason to investigate this, and the reason I wanted to, to do this series of podcast episodes is essentially this. If you're an herbalist, you should be familiar with the herbs that people take most frequently. You should be familiar with the ones that are popular. You should know what is popular and, and why, like, what is drawing people to that plant or that product, right? What is convincing people that this is worth taking, that this is gonna help them ? Um, and what does that say about what people are experiencing, what people are worried about , uh, and what people are coping with in their lives. Um, you should also be able to talk to people about these popular plants for a couple of reasons. One is to , uh, make sure that they understand what they're actually taking or to guide them towards , uh, better quality products. In a lot of cases, that's quite necessary. Um, it can also be to , uh, correct misconceptions that people may have , uh, about certain plants or , um, supplements and how they work, what kind of things they can or can't do in the body, what kind of safety profile they have, or risks that they may have. Um, so all of those are really important to be able to express to a client or somebody that you're consulting for. Um, you may also , uh, find ways to offer more effective alternatives to an individual person. 'cause again, they may be taking a supplement because they've heard it's good for fill in the blank , right? I'm taking this 'cause I heard it was good for high blood pressure. I'm taking this 'cause I heard it was good for cognitive function. And you as an herbalist, especially if you're well-trained, you might be able to say, okay, I can see why that would interest you and why that herb is popular for that purpose, but for your body, for your constitution, for your particular state of being, I think this other herb or this formula would actually serve you better. Um, so that's something that we can do for our clients that's really, really helpful for them. Um, and you know, that, that kind of dovetails with one other element there, which is which supplements are actually worth the money <laugh> and which ones, which ones may not be. Um, especially when there are , uh, questions of, of , uh, accessibility and affordability, you know, for, for a given person's budget. All right . So those are some of the ideas that , uh, we're gonna be touching on as we go through. Um, this , uh, this sequence of episodes. I think we're gonna be weaving these in and out with other types of content , uh, for a while here as we go forward. But , um, but looking back to the herbal market report, if you wanna open that in a tab or , uh, check it out as we go along here, or pause and , and poke through it. Um, a couple things I wanna draw out , uh, right up at the beginning here. So, first of all , um, sales of herbal supplements are, are , uh, pretty large, okay? Uh , it , the estimate for the year 2023, the year we have data from here, is that Americans spent about $12.5 billion on herbal supplements in that year. Um, and it's worth noting that , uh, that that is only about supplements. Like, we're not including a number of things here that, that may have herbs in them, <laugh>, right? So things like cosmetics, but also personal care items like lotions and , um, like skin restore salves and things like that wouldn't be included under this particular , um, investigation. Uh, herbal products like a , like an herbal tea or tea bags , and then prepared , uh, herbal teas or beverages or things like that. Also not included here when herbs are as an ingredient in a , a food item, whether it's a snack food or a little prepared meal or whatever, that's not included. And then there's a couple of places where herbs or their extracts can show up in a commercial product, but it's in the category of over the counter drug rather than the category of supplement . Um, so a couple examples there. Cilium husk, which is one of the herbs we're gonna address today. Cilium husk can be sold as an herbal supplement by itself or in formulation, but it can also be sold as an over the counter drug. And in that, in that situation, it's , um, specific , like the drug category. There is bulk laxative or bulking laxative. Um, there are other kinds of fiber product that could be sold that way, which you may or may not consider herbal. Like some Metamucil products, for instance, are actually made up with corn fiber. Um, others are made with cilium husk. There's a, you know, variety of different things. Um, but those, again, they may be categorized as supplement. They may be categorized as over the counter drug. And in the latter case, that's not , uh, that sale is not counted in this, in this particular report. Another example of an herb that can show up as an OTC med is Sena. So Sena is an herb. Uh , and there can be herbal products of it, supplements that can be categorized that way, but sometimes Sena or its extracts are included in an over the counter drug product as a stimulant laxative, which is what that herb does. <laugh> , you know, it causes the intestinal peristalsis and it, you know , uh, empties the bells. Um, but anyway, that can be in that group. And then caffeine extracts, like it could be a coffee extract or a tea extract, same situation, could be sold as a supplement, could also be sold as an over the counter drug. In this case, the drug category is alertness aid. Okay? So , um, just to say, there's a few cases like that where depending on the manufacturer or how they, how they , uh, decide to sell their product, what route they go , um, they may be in one or the other category. The other thing about these lists , um, the, the top seller lists in the market report here. So there's the overall sales, and like I said, that was about 12 and a half billion dollars in 2023. But they break that up into what they call channels, right? Or like, like groups of stores or types of store types of retailer. Uh, and so , um, there's the, the, the mainstream channel , uh, which is like grocery stores, drug stores , dollar stores, convenience stores, things like this. Uh, the ones that you would just think of as being more , more mainstream rather than specialty or niche or whatever. Um, sales, there were about two and a half billion dollars, right? $3 billion was in the natural and health food and specialty retail, or the so-called natural channel. Um, but then $7 billion, right? Which is more than those two put up together. 7 billion was in direct sales. And direct sales here includes like buying off of Amazon, buying online from someplace like walmart.com, <laugh> , if you were to ever do that. Uh, also multi-level marketing companies , um, where you might buy from a representative who's also a , like a , a mid-level person in that pyramid situation. Um, direct sales, like from a company who makes the product straight through their website to people. And then , um, sales through a health practitioner, right? Like there might be a naturopath that , uh, you know, has a wholesale deal with some supplement company and they sell them to their , uh, to their patients or to their clients , um, at a reduced rate or something like that. Um , so the thing about this report and the top seller is all of that category, the direct sales, Amazon websites, MLM stuff, all of that. Um, those are not included here, and I am very curious about how that would adjust, which herbs are, at which point or, or which, which ranking on the list. Um, but it's obviously difficult data to get or to collate together, and that would require a bunch of individual companies to sell to , to share a lot of granular data about what they're doing. Um, so there's, there's some limitations on what data we can get about that. Um, but just to be clear, these , um, these , uh, lists here are about what's called the mainstream channel and the natural channel. Um, most of this series is gonna be about the mainstream list. Um, 'cause a lot of herbs show up on both of them, and so we'll just address them in the, in the order they, they turn up. Um, but towards the end of this sequence of episodes, there will be a few bits about , uh, summers that show up on the natural channel, but not the mainstream one. 'cause there are a few differences in, in ranking and in membership , uh, between them. All right . So we're gonna start today with, again, the mainstream channel. And like I said, that's like grocery stores , uh, drug stores, dollar stores, convenience stores. But this isn't gonna include places like Whole Foods , um, and , uh, what are like Sprouts or other, other , like natural or specialties, just shops like that. Okay? Um, so on this, this list, the number one herb , uh, is p cilium. And psyllium is , uh, the seed of a species of plantain. Um, usually it's gotten from plant Togo, ota , uh, that's a species of plantain that makes a lot of seeds. They're quite large, easy to harvest. And so it's , uh, the simplest one to do , uh, for this. So cilium has actually been in the number one spot on these lists for two years now. Uh, prior to that it was actually much lower , uh, on the ranking. Um, but it has, it has moved up in just the last couple of years. Um, as I mentioned, that's always, that's one of the things I'm looking for when I, when I see the report each year. So like, you know, who went up, who went down, how many spots , um, what does that reflect in terms of , uh, changes in the , uh, in the interests among people for that plant? So psyllium husk is , um, uh, is essentially sold as a fiber supplement, right? And I mentioned earlier that it , it's sometimes found in over the counter bulk laxative drug products. Um, and that sales for those aren't included here, despite that the service is still at the top of the list, right? Um, and so the, the thing that people are, are focused on and, and marketing around is the fiber content, both soluble and insoluble fiber. Um, with cilium, it's more soluble fiber than insoluble. Um, like a tablespoon of powdered cilium husk gets you , uh, it , it weighs about nine grams total. Seven grams of that is fiber content. And , uh, of that six grams is the soluble fiber, and one gram is the insoluble fiber. This is a pretty nice balance, honestly, <laugh> , um, when it comes to like, gut health. And so this is a , a friendly , uh, source for that kind of thing. Um, fiber products like this, soluble, insoluble, the mix right, have been studied primarily for gastrointestinal upsets and more than anything else for constipation , uh, p cilium husk is really well proven as a, as an effective remedy for constipation. Sometimes the efficacy depends on dose, and if people take too little, they don't get much of a benefit, or it's not as noticeable as it as it could be. Um, in some investigations, this has been found to be, you know, like tested alongside a number of other remedies and found to be one of the most effective things as long as the dose was high enough. Sometimes that requires a dose of like 10 grams of the cilium husk per day. Um, so again, like a whole tablespoon of powder can get you there. Um, somebody may take that all in one dose together, or they may divide it up in little in doses through the day . But one key thing, whenever somebody's working with cilium husk, and any, any product you look at is gonna have a bunch of labels or a bunch of like boxes on it , uh, to, to stress this is that you've gotta take it with water and with a lot of water is better, right? So you wouldn't want somebody to just take dry cilium husk powder, put it in their mouth and swallow it down because, well, it's gonna absorb the water of your digestive system and it's gonna swell up there. Um, and if you were to swallow a whole bunch of dry powder, it could swell up in your stomach and kind of make a lump, that's not really gonna move. It's a bad situation to be in. You don't wanna set yourself up for that. So if someone's taking a whole tablespoon of powdered cilium , they're gonna want like at least 12 ounces of water right there with it to stir it in, and then it's best to drink even more water afterwards. Um, you don't have to take whole tablespoon doses to get some benefit from it. There's , um, plenty of benefit to be had from a teaspoon dose or, or like a heaping teaspoon or something like that. Um, maybe you do it twice a day if this is your only source of fiber, but listen, it really shouldn't be <laugh> , right? And that's worth noting here that when we talk about, you know , uh, providing seven or maybe eight grams of, of fiber content to you in a, in a significant dose of this, of this product, this patterned cilium husk, let's compare that to a couple foods, right? Um, so in our digestive health course , uh, if you're one of our students, if you're in that course , um, then look for the fiber, PDF <laugh> . Um, it's in the, the overall digestive health , uh, chapter in that course. And Katya has made a really excellent chart of a bunch of food items and the amount of fiber that they can provide to you. Um, also some herb items, by the way. Like if you get cooked nettles and you have a cup of them that gets you six grams of fiber <laugh>, right? Um, uh, so I'm not gonna read a bunch of numbers, but let's just say a few numbers, right? Like, if you eat a whole avocado that'll give you 10 grams of fiber. Hey, that's at least as good as that supplementary dose of cilium husk. Or if you eat a cup of blackberries that gets you eight grams of fiber , um, just a quarter cup of almonds will give you four grams. Or if you cook butternut squash and you eat a cup of that nine grams of fiber, right? So the takeaway message here is that Whole Foods, actual fruits and vegetables, <laugh> , okay? They are your best. They are your biggest source of fiber unless you eat a very standard American diet or a sad American diet, right? Uh, in which there may be lots of processed food, lots of packaged food, maybe restaurant food, but there could be minimal vegetable content, there could be lots of flour there, and it may be refined instead of whole , uh, flour, right? Or grains, that kind of thing. And so those foods can be really low in fiber, and it's, it's actually possible for people to have an extremely low fiber diet without intending to do so. Um, right? I'm not talking about people who do that purposefully because of small intestine bacterial overgrowth or, you know, other, other digestive problems. Um, but just , uh, somebody who falls into a diet that, that has low fiber content , um, that person is gonna get a significant amount of benefit from working with something like cilium husk as a fiber supplement, right? And that might be a bridge strategy as we do some work , uh, to, you know, alter the kind of foods that they, that they buy and prepare, or how they, how they cook or, or what kind of things they , um, they eat primarily. Um, but , uh, for other people, this may just be a way to help them get up. Uh, get up a little bit, a little bit further in terms of fiber intake. Um, like I mentioned, cilium has been studied for a number of digestive upsets. Um, uh, its results for constipation are the best for other things. The results may be a little bit mixed, right? One example is inflammatory bowel disease, which is a , a broad category. And there we can, you know, label a bunch of other , um, conditions underneath that. But it is exactly what it sounds like. You've got inflammation in your bowels <laugh> , it's causing upset, right? So , um, in studies that have looked at that with cilium husk, the results are mixed. Some seem good, some seem not so good. To me, what that means is that this label, inflammatory bowel disease, is actually broadly capturing a bunch of diverse conditions, and not all of them are addressed much by fiber. Some of them, yes. And those are the ones where it worked out well, but others not so much. And there'd be a different approach we need, like focusing on restoration of gut integrity or improving vitamin D status to try to lock down the tight junctions a bit or, or other, you know, methods that we might, we might draw on. Um, one thing to note about cilium husk is that it's not only marketed for digestive health anymore. There's been a shift sometime in the last few years where you're seeing it marketed for cardiovascular health as well, and then a sort of very general wellness claim, you know, supports wellness <laugh>, right? Um, so that's, that's very broad. Uh, but there has been much greater interest in cilium as a cardiovascular health product in, in recent years. Um, and if you're thinking of it in the digestive system and the fiber content, you may be wondering like, where, what , how, why would that help? Um, the, the simple understanding here is that when we consume fiber , um, it can capture and bind up bile that has been secreted by the liver and the gallbladder into the intestine. Um, so it can get bound up into the fiber and then eliminated out of your body. This is a good thing , uh, because when that doesn't happen, if we have a low fiber diet, that bile can get reabsorbed, right? So instead of getting squirted out and helping with digestion and moving, moving things along in the guts and then leaving your body, it can get reabsorbed. And when that happens, that's one of the things that leads to problems with the gallbladder. Like gallstones can lead to liver issues. Um, and it can also lead to a greater reabsorption, not just of the bile, but of, but of cholesterol , uh, cholesterol itself, right? That can also get bound up with the bile , uh, with the, with the fiber and eliminated. But if there's insufficient fiber, that cholesterol might itself get reabsorbed and come back into the system. So what's been found when this has been studied, you know, they have people take the fiber supplement every day for a month or however long, and they measure their cholesterol levels before and after. You find that with , um, cilium supplementation, you can see reductions in total cholesterol and in LDL, but not in HDL, and not usually in triglycerides either. All of this is really pretty consistent when it comes to the effects of fiber rich foods or supplementation with fiber on these blood lipids or these, these , uh, like fatty substances that, that move in the blood and circulate through the body. Um, so that, just like capturing the bile, capturing the cholesterol, eliminating it with the feces is a major way that , uh, that a fiber supplement like cilium can improve. Uh, your, your, your blood , uh, your blood parameters there, there's another aspect to it though, which is prebiotic effects. So altering the gut flora in a positive way by feeding them, essentially, right? Some of that soluble fiber is food for some of your friendly gut flora. So you feed them, they take care of you <laugh>, right? And that includes with digestive and eliminative functions as well. Um, and so that, that also aids in bringing the, the so-called bad cholesterol, bringing that down, right ? Um, and , uh, part of the benefit that those microbes can have is that they can take some of that fiber, they consume it, they ferment it, and they convert it into short chain fatty acids. Then your body can absorb and utilize those and burn them as a really clean energy source. Yep . So that's pretty nice. Um, alongside those improvements in cholesterol numbers, people have often seen, or studies have shown improvements in your blood sugar level, especially fasting blood sugar levels, the hba one c reading, which is , uh, a sort of a , a measurement of a longer term state of your body in terms of blood sugar regulation , um, and then even in , uh, in blood pressure , uh, as well systolic blood pressure in particular. Um, so all of those things are great, but again, just keep in mind whenever someone's talking about the health benefits of cilium, that if this person was to eat a couple of cups of leafy green veggies every day , uh, if they were to increase their intake of , uh, certain nuts, if they were to have a lot more blackberries and raspberries in their, in their life, those would also increase the fiber content , uh, of their, of their diet , um, of their, their intake. And we would expect these same kind of benefits. So just to say it's a supplement, it's not a necessity. You don't have a cilium deficiency, you may have a fiber deficiency, and p cilium may be a good way to fill that in or, or cover the gap. Um, but , uh, there are other ways to accomplish it. I'd just like to make that clear. Alright . Um, one other small note, <laugh> , a couple of , uh, the cilium husk products, the ones where they're ground to a powder, they'll also say, oh, you can use this as an egg replacement. Um, like if you take a teaspoon of this powder, it replaces one egg in your baking. I'm not a great baker, but I've given this a try a couple of times. And my, my read on it is, eh k kinda okay, <laugh> . Um, you can try it out. If you've got a lovely recipe , uh, that involves this for that purpose, let me know, but my results weren't fantastic. Yeah, we'll see. Uh, all right , so we've been talking a lot about the commercial presentation and the popularization of it and so on. Um, but let's step back a little and be herbalists here and say, we're talking about p cilium. We're talking about plantago ota . So it's a plantago, it's a plantain, right? Not the banana thing, but plantain, the little ground herb , uh, the little green , uh, leafy rosette on the ground, and then the, the spike of the stem that that grows up and , and makes the seeds. So if we focus on the seed first, other plantago species , uh, including plantago, majure and plantago lanta , um, these are like the two most common plantain species where I live in New England. Um, you could, you can gather the seeds from there, you could grind them into powder. Uh, you can take them as a fiber supplement if you want to. Um, nothing to stop you from doing it. The ota , like I said, it just makes more seeds. It's easier to gather, and that's why it's grown for that purpose. Um, but herbalist, we, we know plantain, plantago primarily for the leaf rather than the seeds. And plantain leaf is a , a fantastic remedy. I mean, it has a ton of benefits starting as a wound healer. Um, and that can be topical. That can also be internal if we have ulcerations or , uh, wounds or, or just like the, the degree of inflammation that can affect your digestive system. Plantain leaf is a really excellent remedy for soothing that, healing that , um, uh, reducing inflammation, reducing excessive permeability in the mucus membranes, right? All the way through. Um, so it really is one of our, one of our primary digestive , uh, remedy herbs. One of the nice things is that as it's like soothing the entire GI tract and all the mucus membranes there , um, it also has some positive anti-inflammatory benefits on your liver, and it's what we call a hepatoprotective herb in that regard. Um, so that kind of adds an extra layer to support for digestive organs, but kind of broadens the activity there , um, in terms of your limited functions as well. Um, so we could talk for a long time about plantain, and in fact, we have , um, so for further discussion of plantain from an herbalist perspective, I wanna point you back to episode 205. Uh, that was where we talked about pine and also plantain , uh, together. And I'll put a link in the show notes for that one. Um, but just to say like, the , the biggest difference, I think , uh, the simplest way to say a difference between commercial presentation of plantago , uh, plants, and the way herbalist think about them is what part do we work with, right? And , uh, what kind of, what kind of activities are we getting when you take the leaf? It's not so much about fiber content, it's more about little bit of misage , a little bit of , little bit of tannins. Uh, a couple of particular plant constituents that plantain makes a lot of, like alto in and Aubin . Um , Anisa have these beneficial effects on your gut integrity. Uh, some impacts on gut flora as well. Um, but they're different from the provision of fiber itself. Um, they could certainly compliment each other. Nothing to stop you from making plantain leaf tea and putting p cilium seed powder into it. <laugh> . Um, you know, you could , uh, you could be having like a little family reunion if you want to. Yeah. All right , so that's, that's cilium . Uh, number two on the mainstream bestsellers list is elder and specifically Elder Barry . Uh, looking here at Sambuca Nigra and Sambucas Canadensis elderberry. Hmm . Elderberry had a big bump in sales, like I mentioned earlier, in Covid , um, particularly the sales numbers for the year 2020. Uh, there was a , a massive jump from where elder had been, now elder in prior years. It had been on the, on the bestseller list, but it was like middle of the pack somewhere, right? Uh, when Sars COVID-19 came around, and as, as the pandemic was rolling on the interest in that people looking for antiviral herbs, right? Looking for herbs that are , uh, well regarded as being helpful for respiratory infection. Elderberry is the most obvious candidate with that, because elderberry has been popular, very popular as a cold and espec , especially as a, as an influenza remedy. Um, for, well, for a really long time actually. Uh , back to, back to historical times, back to prehistory, I imagine. Uh, so there was a big leap there, and there's been some regression since then. Um, sales in the year 2023 of elderberry products declined by about 28, 20 8% , um, from the prior year. So it's just a regression towards the baseline there. Um, in the modern context, elderberry is sold in a bunch of different ways. Syrups , uh, are one of the more traditional ways and , um, one of the better studied ways to take , uh, elderberry as well. Um, capsules and tablets have been around for a while , tinctures and, and glycerides, of course, and, and those are not as popular. Uh, the tincture, the glycerin, those formats are not as popular out there in the general public. Uh , maybe more familiar to you if you're an herbalist or going to, you know, herb shops or apothecary shops and seeing whole lines of tinctures there. Um, but it's worth saying that gummies have become very, very popular. And the, the kind of development and expansion of gummy herbal supplement products , um, in the past , uh, 10 ish years or so, has accelerated and has also brought a lot of , um, uh, a lot of , uh, increased attention to certain herbs or other supplement items , um, uh, than they previously had. Um, I'm not , I don't think we'll get to it today, but when we get to apple cider vinegar, that one had a really, really big increase in , um, in sales once gummies started to be available. Um, so anyway, elderberry gummies are , are quite popular, and , uh, you'll see a lot of them if you go to Amazon or Vitacost or something like that. So, elder , um, elderberry, of course, is marketed for immune support, right? Um, and if you ever wonder why there are these kind of vague claims, it goes, it goes to the law about what, what defines a supplement in the United States and what types of claims they're allowed to make on the labels. Um, and so the general rule, which has had some complications recently, the general rule has been that you're allowed to make what are called structure and function claims. So you can't, for a supplement, you can't say , uh, this elderberry supplement kills the flu virus, even if you can prove that it does in a Petri dish, or you've got some lab studies that back up the claim, you can't say that kind of thing in the us . Instead, you have to say, supports immune health. Um, so that's what people do, right? And so elderberry gets marketed , uh, for, for immune supports. And then, you know, the way I would put this is that it does get marketed for cold, for flu, for covid by any available terminology. And depending on the manufacturer and how closely they hue to the rules , um, that could be that they, they just leave it at immune supports. Um, in some cases there are , uh, you know, other makers or, or smaller scale providers or things like that , um, who might be playing a little more freely <laugh> with the terminology. Um, and so, you know, just that is the impression people have that that idea is kind of already out there in the world. Um, and so that's, that's part of the draw, that's part of the popularity, right? One thing I wanna make , uh, a , a special note about when it comes to elderberry , um, and products for, for immune support and that kind of thing, is that occasionally you'll go and you'll look at an elderberry product, and right there on the box it will say, take for cold and flu , uh, works for , uh, cough and sneezing and runny nose and fever and aches and pains. Now, if you see that, look at the box a little more closely, and you'll probably see the word homeopathic written on it, because homeopathic products are regulated differently from herbal supplements and, and other supplements, vitamins and minerals and so on. They're regulated differently here in the us . So if you're selling a homeopathic product, there are certain disease claims or symptom names that you are allowed to put on your label, but you're not allowed to do that if it's a, what I would call a full strength herbal supplement or, or herbal product, right? Um, the reason this matters is that a homeopathic product and a supplement , uh, product are very different from each other. One simple way to see that is that a homeopathic product could be a little white tablet. Any extract of elderberry that has its active chemistry in it is gonna be purple because the active chemistry is purple <laugh>, right? The active chemistry , uh, I mean, there's a lot of active chemistries you could say in elderberry, but the anthocyanins are a big part of what does the job of helping your body fight off , uh, cold and flu and other, other infections like that. Um, and they are purple. They are the pigment, they're the pigment and the medicine together. Um, it's the same thing. And so if we have a product , uh, and it's a clear liquid or a white powder, that's not elderberry chemistry, that, that's something else. Homeopathic products, of course, are made in a, in a process which dilutes the original substance to such a point that there's probably no, no molecules of that original substance left in the finished product. Um, so I mentioned this in the context of elderberry. Um, it does apply to, to other supplements as well. You might see homeopathic turmeric products out there, or homeopathic ashwagandha or whatever. Um, but elderberry, they're more common. And even , um, it's even worth noting here that sometimes the same brand , including very popular brands, can produce products in both categories. They make a homeopathic line over here, and they make a full strength supplement line capsules or gummies or syrups or whatever over here. One, one brand we can name that does both of those, is, is the probably the most popular elderberry brand out there, Sambuca Sambuca. So Sambuca has been in the elderberry game for a long time. They've , um, you know, run and funded a number of studies into its efficacy, like the efficacy of their own elderberry syrup , uh, against flu and , um, and some other respiratory viruses. And the data's actually good , um, even though it is yes, corporate funded . Um, so , uh, so anyway, you can go to Amazon right now. If you just type in Sambuca , the first row of results will probably include two or three homeopathic products, and then two or three actual supplements, you know, syrup or gummy or something like that for you as an herbalist. I just want you to be very, very capable of differentiating homeopathic versus supplement products when it comes to elderberry. If somebody loves homeopathy and that's what they want, that's what they want, great. But a lot of people don't know the difference, right? They've maybe heard this phrase, herbal and homeopathic remedies, right? And they don't understand that there's a massive difference between them in terms of what you actually consume, right? If you have an elderberry tincture over here and an elderberry homeopathic liquid over here, well, like I said, the, the tincture will be purple. It will have anthocyanins, it will have other elder chemistry in it, the homeopathic, it will be a clear liquid with probably no actual molecules from it. So , um, I'll be agnostic today about which one is, is , uh, you know, <laugh> , uh, is, is best for any individual given person. Um, clearly my preference is for the actual supplements and products, and that's what I like to work with. Um, but again, I just want you, dear listener, to be very capable of making that differentiation and passing that knowledge on to people that you work with. All right ? So , um, this is a case where the, the kind of marketing , uh, about elderberry is not wrong, but it is constrained a bit, right? Elderberry is indeed an excellent immune support herb. Uh, it can heighten your immune responses and reactions , uh, to an illness. And , uh, that's one of the reasons why it's best to take it early on in the illness. If you've been sick for three or four days, adding elderberry at that point isn't necessarily gonna do a whole lot for you. The earlier, the better. Um, and don't be shy about dose size when it's early on either. That's my my advice to you about elder , uh, remedies. Um, elder can heighten surveillance. Some folks like to take elder, like through the whole cold and flu season , um, as a way to kind of boost up their, their , uh, resistance there. I prefer other herbs for that. Things like astragalus, codonopsis. Um, but it's not a, it's not a wholly wrong way to work with elderberry. Um, it is an expensive way to work with elderberry if you've got good quality products, though. So that's worth, worth considering. Um, but the thing is, elderberry is more than that, right? It's more than cold and flu and, and covid . It's more than immune boosting. Uh, elder is a richly pigmented nutritive berry , right? Uh, it is an anti anti-inflammatory remedy from that perspective. Um, and that does feed into its actions on the immune system. Like elderberry has a complicated effect on immunity, because immunity is complicated. It's not al , it's not like on or off or, you know, active or quiet. Um, there are many branches and arms and members of the immune system, and elderberry activates some of them and calms down some of them. Um, the net effect is that it tends to make our passage through an illness much smoother and much easier. Um, but , uh, sometimes that information can be misinterpreted because somebody may zoom in on like one, say , um, one cytokine, one inflammatory messenger that elderberry does upregulate in the body. And we've seen people get really anxious about that and worry about cytokine storm and things like this. And that's not a realistic worry. Um, I've got a reference, I'll put it in the show notes for you about elderberry and cytokine storm just in case that meme kind of floated past your brain at some point. Uh , we can put that one to rest. Uh, but I think it is worth thinking about elderberry in that broader context of inflammation , um, which has a huge component to the immune response, right? A lot of our immune response is inflammatory , uh, but that's not the whole of the immune response, and that's not the whole of the inflammatory response in our body. So anyway, elderberry is worth considering there. Um, it's, it's also got lymphatic actions to it. It's also got diuretic actions to it. Um, and those might be very helpful , uh, for a given person. We might say, all right , you know, you have a diet that's very beige. I wanna get you some pigments, I wanna get you some vitamin purple. Uh, you've got stuck fluids in your body. I wanna move your lymph. I wanna drain some fluid from the kidney. So elder can accomplish all of those. We don't need to be like, well, elder can do some immune stuff, but then I need nettle for diuretic, and I need calendula for a lymphatic. Don't underestimate elder <laugh> , right? It has these, these capacities to it. Um, and you know, when we, we set all of those aside, each other, we can see where elder , um, is one of those exemplars of the herbalists category. Alternative , right? Alternative is a , is a big umbrella category. There's lots of sub components to that. Um , alternative is about improving the quality of circulating fluids in your body. And you can do that in different ways. Elder is doing that through nutritive ways, through lymphatic ways, diuretic ways, and then yeah, inflammation mitigation and , um, immune modulation. Those are all happening at the same time. Uh, and so I think when you see it from that perspective, you can understand why elder is such a classic alterative agent. Um, and it really does deserve a , a place in those kind of formulas these days. A lot of times that approach is looked at , looked at under the, the idea of detox. Um, but that's actually a fairly impoverished way to look at it , uh, in comparison to the, the traditional approach. Um, so I think that's why people focus so much on like strong laxative agents and not quite enough, as far as I'm concerned, on plants like elderberry. All right . Um, now from the herbalist perspective, elder is also not only the berry <laugh> , right? Uh , so other parts of elder, in my experience anyway, are rarely, or almost never, depending on which part, like found in, in supplement products, in in commerce these days. Um, elder flower might turn up here and there. I mean, certainly you can find elder flower lour , like , uh, like St . Germaine , uh, is a nice , uh, nice one. Um, you can see elderberry turn up in , uh, sorry, elder flower turn up in some , um, some tea formulations and blends. Uh, certainly some body care products and, and, you know, skincare and stuff like that, elder flower can turn up there. And that does track with , uh, with traditional ways of working with it as well as a, as a topical remedy for like skin ification , um, and that sort of thing. We see elder flower also being a relaxant diaphoretic , uh, to release pent up heat from the body. Um, both physical heat, like a fever. Um, and you as the herbalist, you may be familiar with elder flower as a , a nice remedy for releasing the heat of a fever when we want to do that. But , um, Katya and I are also very interested in relaxant diaphoretic from a, a nervous system or an emotional perspective , um, talking about them as emotional diaphoretic , uh, to release hot emotions and pent up frustration and agitation. Um, and I'd say from , for our own practice, that's one of the key , uh, indicators for elder flower , um, that drives our work. Yeah . Uh, and so that's bringing it into that nervy category and, and seeing some actions over there. There are a couple other parts that you won't see , uh, at least I hope not <laugh> honestly, in , uh, in supplement products. And if you do, look, look ance upon them is what I would tell you. Uh, but so the leaf, elder leaf , um, no thanks. All right . So there's supposedly some antiviral activity to be found in elder leaf , but as far as I can see, the activity of like the antiviral proteins in elder leaf have been overstated in terms of practical application. And the reason is that the margin between a safe and comfortable dose of elder leaf and a ative and cathartic dose, like get all the stuff out of you from both ends of you, okay? The difference between those doses is quite small and , uh, variable from person to person. So I think you're more likely to cause somebody to vomit and have uncomfortable diarrhea than you are to boost up their immune fighting effect . This is a case where like many others, where some antimicrobial or particularly antiviral activity of a plant , um, can be identified in a Petri dish, take an extract of this plant, squirted onto some viruses, crawling around in there, and we can see them , uh, we can see them die, but taking it in your mouth, having it circulate through your body and reaching the place in your body where those viruses are reaching there at a concentration, strong enough to do that to them, not very likely, and also very uncomfortable along the way. So I'm not, I'm not real keen on elder leaf taken orally for these kind of purposes. Um, I do know some herbalists who like to work with elder leaf topically, though , uh, including in wound care , uh, blends , um, both , uh, open wounds and then, and then closed wounds. Uh , like a , like a contusion, you know, something like that. Um, and there, that's a , another way to bring in some anti-inflammatory action , um, less than a , like a viral focus, but , uh, but that's a , a different kind of a thing and , um, that, that may be worth doing. But it's e even among herbalist I speak to, that's fairly rare. Alright ? And then elder Barak basically all that same stuff, but even more so elder bark is gonna have a purgative effect. And I guess if you really, really want one, you can play around with that, but I'm not very interested in that. Thank you, <laugh> . I think that's about all I need to say there. Hmm . So in the show notes, I do have , uh, a reference to episode 216. That's the one where we talked about elderberry. That one we also discussed sassafras, 'cause they were next to each other in the alphabet. Um, but you can check that out if you want more discussion about elder as an herbal medicine. All right , let's do two more today. Um, so number three on the mainstream list is turmeric. And this one , uh, this one is number three on the mainstream list. It's number one on the natural list , uh, for 2023. And in both of them, it's been up near the top, you know, like the top four or five, I'd say , uh, for the past several years. Um, and you're probably not surprised by that. Like if you're listening to an herbalism podcast, you've probably heard of turmeric, you probably know that it's , uh, it's anti-inflammatory. You may already be familiar with some chemistry in turmeric. The curcumin, or the broader term is curcuminoids. Uh, oid means kind of like <laugh> , right ? So to say curcuminoids means that there's curcumin as strictly defined, and then there's a bunch of other chemicals that are almost the same, but a little bit, a little bit different, like a little bend over here, a little extra bit tacked on over there. And so they're curcumin, they're curcuminoid <laugh>, right ? Um, so that , uh, particular chemistry has been very well identified and very heavily studied. And from one perspective, this is the active ingredient in turmeric, right? Um, and so , uh, you know, our take on that whole concept of the active ingredient is that the active ingredient in turmeric is turmeric. The active ingredient in elderberry is the whole berry, right? We don't like to be reductionist. When we look at our plants , uh, we find that there can be drawbacks to that right ? Now, turmeric products, you'll find some that are the whole spectrum extract. You'll find some that are standardized, and that means that they've decided they want to hit X percent curcumin. So they're gonna do some extract. They might do multiple extracts and combine them, like, get extra curcumin from over here, combine it with this, with this , uh, with this raw or this , uh, this native extract. Um, that's a term from the industry, right? It means that it hasn't been deeply processed or selectively , uh, uh, enhanced or whatever. But then you add that isolated curcumin on top of it, and you say, all right , I've got this capsule for you. I guarantee you're gonna get 10% curcumin, even if that's not what naturally occurs in the plant. So standardization often involves some degree of concentration, which is to say, presenting you with something that has a higher proportion of that target chemistry than you would get in the whole plant itself. And then sometimes we see isolates, right? Isolates means you've taken just that one chemical. So if it's not a turmeric product, it's a curcumin product that I would consider a plant extract isolate, right? You have isolated that one compound. You're only taking that. So I'm just describing all of this because turmeric more so than many other plants that are popular, that are sold in, in commercial products , uh, this one, it does turn up in whole plant extracts and in isolates and in everything in between the varieties of standardization or concentration. Um, and furthermore, the sales , like the, the way they're categorizing this, the sales for turmeric include those isolates. You could make a contrast there with the herb Sena, right? Sena is that stimulant laxative plant. Um, with Sena, if it's a whole plant extract, that's probably gonna be sold as a supplement and included in these discussions. But if they just isolate the seno sides , right? This is chemistry incent that, that has, that, that stimulant effect on your bowels , um, when those are isolated and put into an over-the-counter medication , um, or well, anyway, when they're put into a product, it's gonna be classed or categorized as an over the counter medication instead. Okay? So anyway, curcumin, curcuminoid, turmeric, some combination of all of these things. These are all grouped here together, right ? And they're all, they're all sold for similar purposes, right ? Um, primarily for joint pain, for inflammation, for joint health. Um, many now for like a very, like, again, that that sort of general like improves health <laugh> , you know, or , uh, general health or whatever. Like sometimes it's, that's the, that's all the marketing they, they choose to do, right? Or all of the, the label claims they choose to make. Um, there are , uh, different ways to categorize how a product is being marketed. Usually what's used is called health focus, right? Um, and if, if there's a product, then it lists like three or four things that can help you with. It would be whichever one is biggest or most repeated or something like that. Um, so turmeric , uh, because it's popular, because it has that broad reputation as an anti-inflammatory. Um, there are turmeric products that are being sold for like 20 different health focuses, but most of them are really minimal. Um , pain, inflammation, joint health, those, those are the biggest ones. And they have been , um, for, you know, a decade or two. Uh, what I'm noticing though, and I'm seeing this like among functional medicine people and naturopath practitioners and stuff like that, is that there's a movement being made toward discussing turmeric as , uh, a remedy beyond joints and inflammation and gut health and looking into cardiovascular health , uh, as kind of the next frontier. And then beyond that , um, there are some stirrings around turmeric as a remedy , uh, for, for cognitive health and for brain health. Now, all of these share , uh, a common root , right? Uh, when we look at the propensity for people to have inflammatory diseases or to have , uh, health conditions that are exacerbated by inflammation, and then we look at a substance like turmeric that can have powerful anti-inflammatory effect throughout the body , um, then we, we should expect that it can act on many different places in your system, right? And therefore that it can help with, you know, cardiovascular inflammation, inflammation that's, that's irritating your brain or, or interfering with healthy nervous system function, digestive inflammation, inflammation in your joints, like all the way through, right? Um, but it is again, interesting to me to see where do people try to make space for a new market , uh, for, for turmeric sales , right? Uh , that turmeric over there is for your belly. This one here is for your brain. Haha, <laugh> , right ? Um , you know, for , for , for us , uh, we see the herb, we see its capacity to mitigate inflammation, and we see the expressions of inflammation in all these different places in the system. And so it does kind of all hang together. Um, on the other hand, as an herbalist, I don't think inflammation equals turmeric, right? I think, okay, do I want a carminative? Do I want a plant that has ency to it and it's gonna be digestive stimulant? And also has , uh, some like obvious like anti-inflammatory activity that you can observe when you take somebody with really irritated guts and they work with turmeric, and it's a good match for their system. Uh, you know, because it is a hot herb, because it is a drying herb, because it has some tonifying qualities to it. So if we have somebody, you know, most ideally who's damp and lax and cold, and we have them work more with turmeric, they're gonna get the most benefit from it. Somebody who's hot and dry and tense already, and they just start shoveling turmeric into themselves and may not actually be the best goal or , or the best match for them. Um, the dryness exacerbation is the most likely first thing to see. Sometimes people, people experience heat from turmeric. Um, it's very similar to Ginger. Um, it's almost as warm as ginger. Not quite, but, but anyway , um, you know , uh, it's, it's, it's a food. It , it can be a , an herbal remedy in terms of tea or tincture or things like that. Um, and it's , uh, its activities are gonna start in the digestive system. Um, if you, if you take turmeric by itself, it's primarily a digestive remedy. Um, and part of that is because curcumin , uh, and the curcuminoids, like the whole, whole crew, they're not super easily absorbed through the intestinal barrier to get into the liver, to get into the bloodstream, to get into general circulation and to reach your joints or your brain or your heart, right? Um, when you take turmeric by itself, it's primarily a gastrointestinal remedy, anti-inflammatory, soothing wound healing. Um, you know, has a bunch of really nice benefits that carative effect of moving things along, releasing tensions in , in the guts, right? Um, and so when somebody is dealing with Crohn's disease or IBS or, you know, an unnamed but pervasive <laugh> digestive discomfort , uh, then I would actually encourage them to take turmeric without black pepper, because that's the other way that you're gonna see. That's, that's one of the very common ways you're gonna see turmeric sold, is in combination with an extract of black pepper , uh, or specifically with this compound called piperine. Um, the reason that people do that is because piperine alters some things at the intestinal lining, which allow the curcumin to pass through it more readily, and to get up, like I say, into the liver, into systemic circulation, and to reach these distant parts of your body, distant, distant from the gut. Okay? So if somebody wants to take turmeric because of rheumatoid arthritis with swelling around the joints , um, or if they are feeling like they've , uh, they're, they're worried about brain inflammation and they wanna try turmeric for that, then that's the situation where it would make more sense to , uh, combine turmeric together with black pepper, as is often traditionally done, you know, even in like a chai formula, bit of black pepper can go into there , um, or if you're gonna buy capsules or whatever, if those are the types of goal you have, go ahead and get one that includes the turmeric and the black pepper extract. Um, I personally do think it's best to get full spectrum extracts of each rather than isolated curcumin plus isolated piperine. Um, and I say that as a preference, but also I do have some safety concerns there. Um, in recent years, there have been some reports , uh, through things like the Botanical Adulterants Prevention Program , um, and some other , uh, programs like that which have shown , uh, a heightened risk of adverse effects , uh, from people taking high doses, like very, very high doses of isolated curcumin with isolated piperine, which you don't really observe when it's whole turmeric and whole black pepper being mixed together. Um, and so I think it's actually better to go with more traditional methods in this case , um, and that it's, that it's safer. Um, uh, just to be clear, even in those cases where there have been troubles found, it's not like it's rampant and every single person who takes it gets liver damage. It would be people who already had some existing liver trouble or had other impositions on their , on their metabolism there. But still, that's, that's , uh, that's enough people that I, I am gonna be thoughtful about it. All right . Um, turmeric ha has been investigated for a number of different inflammatory problems. Um, and there is just very consistent evidence that it exerts these effects, that it's anti-inflammatory as a result of that it can relieve pain or swelling or other forms of discomfort. Um, and so, you know, nobody here is saying that it's not effective, just that the ways you take it might be , uh, might be improved or might be best serving you. Uh, and again, in our opinion, that's when you get it closer to the most traditional ways of working with it in food, you know , uh, as a component in, in curry or other spice blends. Um, and also in decoctions, whether you make it in , uh, in, in coconut milk or if you, if you tolerate dairy, if you prepare it that way and you prepare your golden milk, right? That's another classic way to work with it. There is some benefit to having the turmeric together with a fatty substance like that , um, in terms of absorption. Um, so yeah, it's, it's great stuff. We like turmeric a lot. And one thing that , um, is sometimes neglected when it comes to turmeric is topical applications. Um, so I've got, I've got two , uh, show links regarding turmeric for you in the notes today. One is , uh, episode 180 4, where we talked about Hawthorne and turmeric. That was in our, our A to Z series there , um, A to Z by Latin name, Corte and Curcuma . Uh, and then also way back episode 1 49, we did one on topical herbs for acne and turmeric was one of our favorites. Um, along with another plant you might not think of as a topical, which is echinacea. Uh, but the two of those are really, really good for certain forms of acne with turmeric. It's especially the ones that are more postulant, more swollen, there's, yeah , uh, goo if you squeeze, okay, yeah, turmeric on those is, is quite nice. Um, it will put a little gold tint on the skin , um, so be aware about that. But it is , uh, a nice direct way to exert that anti-inflammatory action and some antimicrobial effect as well. Um, some , uh, bacteria static effect on the surface. Alright , so you can hear a bit more about turmeric in those episodes. Okay. And then one more herb for now, and we'll come back to this sequence later on. Um, ashwagandha, ashwagandha is number four, withania Samra . Uh, and so I probably don't have to tell you <laugh>, right? Ashwagandha has gotten quite popular. Um, a lot more people are, are like responding when I asked them if they've heard of it in the positive today than did 10 years ago, or certainly 20 years ago. Um, ashwagandha has kind of made its mark, right? And again, this is the mainstream list, right? So Ashwagandha's coming in ahead of like cranberry supplements and ginger and Ginkgo and, you know , uh, echinacea and a bunch of other things that , um, have been more popular for more time. Um, but Ashwagandha came around , uh, several years back. It kinda leapt up the charts in 2018 and 2019, and then it's continued to improve. Its standing every year since then. So it's up to number four. We'll see what happens next year, <laugh> , right? If we take the bronze or something. But , um, but that's, that's what's been going on with Ashwagandha . Um, and it's marketed almost always as an adaptogen, and it might use that word , uh, explicitly. A lot of products use that, that word adaptogen now because it's caught on enough that people are familiar enough that, that it might draw the eye , um, and, and make the purchase. Um, some products , uh, that we'd categorize as adaptogens are , you know, they're just marketed under the, under the context of stress or , um, uh, yeah, usually it's like stress relief. Say something like that. Some ashwagandha products emphasize its benefits for sleep. Um, and of course that is baked right into the name, the Latin name of the plant with any , uh, some NEA or some nea , uh, FARA is like to bring, and Sona is from Sona , like sleep. So , um, right there it's about bringing around good sleep. Uh, and , uh, so yeah, there are some products that emphasize that. Um, some people experience ashwagandha as a , as sedative. Um, I think that's less common , uh, at least in, in my experience, talking to students and clients, certainly in my, in my own direct experience , um, I find it to have a mild stimulating quality to it. Um, but if you time it right, if you take it during the daytime, then it can help you to be awake and energetic and get some stuff done and then to rest easier at night. Um, and so we find this to be particularly helpful , uh, when we're trying to support cycle , um, and circadian rhythm entrainment , uh, like when your sleep cycle is really disjunct could be completely irregular, you know , uh, could be that it's just offset from the sun's circadian rhythm , uh, by, by a few too many hours <laugh> , and it's causing negative problems for you. Um, so when somebody's trying to change their cycles of sleep and wakefulness and, and rest and recovery , uh, trying to make some improvements in that , uh, or when there have been things that have disrupted cycle, and I, I keep using that word cycle, but I mean it in a broad sense. Like the first cycle we think about for ashwagandha is day and night, right? Active and awake and alert during the day, expressing energy, and then resting and recovering and sleeping and dreaming at night, right? Recovering well. Um, but ashwagandha , let's say, because it supports that cycle, it can support larger cycles like a menstrual cycle, for instance, like something running on the course of a month. Um, and , uh, this is an adaptogen that comes to mind when there are menstrual cycle irregularities , um, uh, in particular, right? And I don't just mean, like, I I do mean irregular, like, like not, it's always heavy. We would address that maybe with some, some, you know, astringent herbs, maybe some yaro , some shepherd's purse, some ladies' mantle, something like that when it's always just hot and heavy all the time, right? Uh , but when it's irregular, like this month it was short and then it was long, and then it was heavy bleeding, and then it was nothing. That's more like, all right , let's try some ashwagandha over the next several months and see if we get some more normalized c circulation of your cycle. Yeah . Uh, ashwagandha can also be helpful when you need to adapt to an , an altered schedule when your schedule needs to shift and, and change around , um, can be very helpful there. And then around, like , like I said, in, in building new habits and regimens around sleep and wake and activity and rest. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, one thing, one thing to note from like the broader perspective on ashwagandha , um, 'cause I , you know, I've kinda given just a short moment to say it's marketed for stress, it's marketed for sleep. Um, a lot of people are stressed, a lot of people can't sleep well. So , uh, the popularity I think is explained very easily there. Um, the way that any ashwagandha product can refer to the ancient wisdom I of Ayurveda is also part of what has driven its popularity as that system, as that, as that , uh, tradition has become better known in America , um, in part through the work of yoga teachers, <laugh>, right? In part through , uh, the work of marketers. Yeah. Um, but , uh, that's, that's part of the, the attraction. Um, on that note, I always like to point out, because it was news to me , uh, the first time I heard it, and it was news after working with this herb for six or eight years , uh, that it's not only an Indian or an Ayurvedic plant. Uh, ashwagandha grows all the way west from there up into northern and Eastern Africa. Um, and , uh, there are a number of different ways that people have worked with it traditionally, including working not only with the root, but also with the leaves. Um, and many of the most traditional applications that I've, I've come across for those have been topical , uh, wound care and stabilization , uh, and, and skin issues and things like that. So ashwagandha is an herb that has a degree of popularity right now where a lot of people feel like they know it very well. Um, but I think for that very reason, it's a , a good example of this general idea I've been raising today that , um, plants get boxed in pretty tight. And , uh, if you were to just reduce what ashwagandha can do down to relieves stress, I think that on the one hand you are, you are missing out on some of the helpful things. Like somebody might hear that but not think at all about sleep. 'cause they're like, well, I'm stressed in the daytime. Maybe if they feel stressed and can't sleep, they might make a connection. But, you know, if you say this can specifically help you to sleep better through the night because it helps you to be energetic and active in the day, that gives a lot more clarity, and it can help the person to know whether that's actually gonna be what's most helpful for them, or if they just need a good strong relaxant, like some kava <laugh>, right? Um, and , uh, that can help people to make better choices and , and get better results. So, you know, we see that as, as our job. Uh , for more on Ashwagandha check out episode 2 26 , uh, that's where we highlighted that , um, that urban particular with Thania . And then , um, also look at episode 1 55. That's where we talked about Equinox, thoughts on balance and on herbs that are given this name amphoteric , which is sometimes just reduced to balancing. Um, but we have a lot to say about that topic. And I , I, that was one of my favorite episodes actually. I really hope you'll listen to it , um, if you haven't already. Uh, because balance is a concept that , um, it's, it's very important. It has a lot of nuance to it, and oftentimes that gets missed in a way that I think can get people stuck. Uh, like literally thinking of balance as a frozen point of no movement is a good way to get yourself mentally and emotionally stuck and attached to something that's not gonna behave that way for you when the reality of balance is that it's something that requires constant adjustments and response to your context. Ooh , you can see there's a lot to dig into with that <laugh> on , uh, on , uh, conceptual and philosophical levels. Um, but we're gonna leave some more of that for other times, and I think I'm gonna wrap it up here today. Um, like I said, I'm gonna continue on with this series. Uh, we'll probably weave it in with some other types of episodes as we go through, through , uh, the next several months here. Um, but I hope you find this interesting and helpful regardless of where you're at in terms of your training. If you're new to herbalism, and this is the first you're hearing about these plants, great. I'm, I'm glad I got to you first. <laugh>. Um, if you've been around a while and , uh, you know, these plants , uh, in other ways too, then , um, I'd be really happy for you to share those with us. You can, you can find our contact info and reach out , um, right through the show notes there. So , um, yeah, so that's it for today. Um, I wanna just mention , uh, that we do have , uh, long profiles on several of these plants in our Materia medica course. Uh, we don't talk about pgo OTA so much, but , uh, p plantago major and plantago , lata , those plantains, elder, turmeric , ashwagandha, we have , um, complete profiles for each of those in our material Medica course. And if you do wanna dive in to , um, the 90 plus plants that we find to be most important and helpful in our practice, then that's the place to do it. And , um, the other reason to take something , uh, to take a material medical course like ours is to learn how to understand plants. What are the aspects of it that we need to know about flavor , uh, a little bit about chemistry can be helpful. The herbal actions that, that , uh, have been , um, attached to that plant throughout, throughout history and about and through, through practice. Um, the kinds of formulations that it makes sense in, the kind of friends that it, that it plays nicely with. Um , so that's what we present in our holistic herbalism material medic course. And , um, it's , uh, again, very, very critical as an herbalist to know your plants as well as you can. The best way to do that is to study them in, in their fullness, in, in their complete complexity. Um, and try to, to get further and further away from you take this herb for this problem, right? That's, that's a big piece of the work as we try to develop our skills. All right , so that's it for today. Um, I hope that you enjoyed it, and I hope that you take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and drink some tea. We'll see you soon.