The Holistic Herbalism Podcast

Herbalists' Views on the Top-Selling Herbs (Part 4): Green Tea, Fenugreek, Ivy Leaf

• CommonWealth Holistic Herbalism • Episode 247

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We discuss green tea, fenugreek, and ivy leaf in this, the fourth part of an episodic sequence about the best-selling herbs in the US.

Our primary purpose for creating this series of episodes is to share an understanding of these herbs from the perspectives of traditional and contemporary herbal practice. Frequently, the high-volume sales of these herbs comes along with oversimplified or diminished ideas about what they can do. If we ask “what does this herb help with?” and answer it based only on what we see on store shelves and product websites, we’ll miss out on a lot of possibilities!

Every herbalist practicing in the US today should be familiar with these herbs, because they are the ones your clients are most likely to be taking even before they show up for an appointment with you. Their use may have implications for your own herbal recommendations, or serve as a jumping-off point for a more involved protocol. You may also be able to advise your clients about alternatives which may serve them better, or even some supplements that aren’t really worth the price.

So overall, this series is both an example of materia medica study and also a guide to ‘marketing literacy’ for supplements.

10. Green Tea – Camellia sinensis

11. Fenugreek – Trigonella foenum-graecum

12. Ivy Leaf – Hedera helix

Find the previous episode of this series here:


Whether you’re a brand-new beginner or an herbalist with experience, it’s always helpful to study the herbs in depth! Our comprehensive presentation of herbal allies is in our Holistic Herbalism Materia Medica course. It includes detailed profiles of 100 medicinal herbs!

Like all our offerings, this self-paced online video course comes with free access to twice-weekly live Q&A sessions with us, lifetime access to current & future course material, open discussion threads integrated in each lesson, an active student community, study guides, quizzes & capstone assignments, and more!


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Speaker 1:

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Speaker 2:

Hi, I'm Ryn and I'm here at Commonwealth Holistic Herbalism in Boston, Massachusetts, and on the internet everywhere. Thanks to the power of the podcast today we're gonna be continuing our series on the top selling herbs in the United States. This is part four of the series. If you haven't seen the others, you can find 'em in our feed right here. Uh, today we're gonna be talking about green tea and also black tea and other <laugh> of those, of the , because they're all from the same plant. We're gonna talk about fenugreek and about Ivy Leaf. So these are , uh, top sellers, number 10, 11, and 12 for the data we've got to work with. Um, so before I dive right into that, I wanna just remind everybody, I'm not a doctor. I'm an herbalist. I'm a holistic health educator. So the ideas discussed in this podcast do not constitute medical advice. No state or federal authority licenses herbalist in the us . So these discussions, these episodes are for educational purposes only. I wanna remind you that good health doesn't mean the same thing for everyone. Good health doesn't exist as an objective standard. It's influenced by your individual needs, your experiences, and your goals. So please keep in mind I'm not attempting to present a single dogmatic right way that you must adhere to. Everyone's body is different. So the things we're talking about may or may not apply directly to you, but we hope that they'll give you some more information to think about and some ideas to research and to experiment with. Further finding your way to better health is both your right and your own personal responsibility. This doesn't mean that you're alone on the journey, and it doesn't mean that you're to blame for your current state of health, but it does mean that the final decision, when you're considering any course of action, whether it's discussed on the internet or prescribed by a physician, that's always your choice to make. Alright , so , um, continuing our series, talking about top selling herbs in commerce , uh, in the United States. This is coming out of data from a market report , um, put out by , uh, the American Botanical Council. Every year we're looking at the data from 2023, 'cause that's the most recent stuff that we've got to work with here. Um, and , uh, in previous episodes in this series, we've seen , uh, we've talked about p cilium, elderberry, turmeric, ashwagandha, apple cider vinegar, cranberry, wheatgrass, beet root , and ginger. Uh, so those are all doing really good out there in the world. People are buying those, liking them. And today, like I said, yeah, we're talking about tea, green tea, fig Greek , and ivy leaf. So let's get right into it. Um, when we say green tea, we're talking about the plant , uh, botanical name ka sinis . Previously it was known as Taya or teia , right? And that's where that's connected to that word tea . Um, the , but nowadays, KAM is what we call that. And that plant is what produces green tea, but also black tea, white tea, oolong tea, silver tea. And all of those differences are just about the way you process the herb after it's been harvested. Um, if the plant is harvested and then just dried, then we get the green tea. There's a process called withering that gives you white tea if you just do that , um, if it gets what they call fermented, but it's really an oxidative process. Um, that's how we get from green tea to oolong tea and then to black tea, you know, as you let that process progress. But anyway, again, these are all , um, about post harvest processing of the plant material. It all originates from the same , uh, same plant, same herb. Um, and so all of those different versions of tea, the tea plant, the tea drink, they have similar chemistry, but there are some differences as they transform. Um, I'm gonna talk here today about catechins . As one of the key groups of beneficial constituents found in this plant. Um, those catechins can be transformed or altered , uh, when that withering process is done, or when that quote unquote fermentation process, the oxidative process is done. Um, and it can put, it can, it can result in some related chemistry, maybe not quite as potent when it comes to potency for anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects, which are at the root of a lot of the benefits of green tea , uh, or the tea plant in general. Um, the, the maximum <laugh> way to get the most benefit , uh, from those is to have it as green tea rather than oolong or black tea or others. Um, now for flavor reasons, you might prefer one of those others, and that's fine. You're still getting a ton of benefit. You don't have to be like, ah , well, I have to drink green tea if I wanna be healthy. You can have your black tea, that's totally fine. Um, but I'm trying to explain why when it comes to supplements and when it comes to supplements that are targeting some of these key, you know, well-studied , uh, understood constituents that they're doing it with, quote unquote green tea. Okay? So when we look at these things on the shelf in a supermarket or on a, on a website like Amazon or Vitacost or one of these things, and we say, all right , well, what are they, what are these being marketed for? Like, the people who sell you a green tea capsule, what are they telling you it's good for? What are they, what are they suggesting that you're gonna do with it? Um, and again, we're taking that perspective. You know, I'm assuming if you're listening or watching this, you're, you're an herbalist or you're interested in herbs, maybe you've got some, some knowledge, some training already. Um, but a lot of people, their only exposure to these things is through such advertising. Um, and so it's a , a good exercise for us practitioners and herb people to look at things from our perspective and try to adopt the , uh, the perspective of somebody who doesn't know anything about plants at all. They see this product on the shelf, what are they gonna see? What's gonna catch their eye? What's gonna draw them to that? And a lot of times it's the, the claims or the, the things that the, the person is saying, this is for, or this is gonna support, or this is gonna help, right? As they, as they market it. So with, with green tea supplements, they're advertised primarily as quote unquote energy support <laugh>, right? Um, which really just means it , it's a way to say, this is gonna stimulate you. This is gonna give you energy, it's gonna make you, you know, feel , uh, powerful <laugh>, right? Um, there's also very frequently either an explicit , uh, or an implied claim that you're gonna take this green tea product and it's gonna help you lose weight. This is gonna be in the category of a weight loss aid supplement. Um, so I won't spend a lot of time on that discussion today, but I just wanna make a little note , uh, as we do whatever this topic comes up, that weight loss , uh, and herbs are very frequently misstated. They're very frequently overstated. There are a lot of false promises that are being made out there by people who make and sell and promote , uh, herbal supplements and other kinds of supplements as well, amino acids, and, you know, all kinds of things. Um, when it comes to , uh, weight and , uh, body fat percentages and things like that, your body will resist a lot of your efforts to change them. Um, in many cases, or to a large extent, these things are established in the course of puberty, and your body establishes a sort of a set point for you. And it says, this is the amount of fat mass I wanna maintain on my body, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna fight to, to maintain that and sustain that over long periods of time. You can make changes in these things, but you can't do it fast, not if you want it to last, not if you want it to be sustainable. And any product that promises you fast weight loss , um, is something you should look at with a lot of skepticism and a lot of caution. If you choose to work with such a thing, you should be very, very careful. Um, in general, I advise against it. If we're interested in losing weight, actually often my first discussion is gonna be, what is the underlying goal behind that? Are you actually concerned about health? Are you concerned about appearance? We can work with that, right? I don't wanna dismiss that either, but just to be clear that we need to understand why this is something you're focusing on. In a lot of cases, it's because people have been told, this is the only way, this is the most important thing to do for them to get healthier. Oh, your knees hurt. Well, it's probably just because you're overweight. And , uh, if you would just shed some pounds, then you would feel fine. This is something that's said to a lot of people who have , uh, serious, you know, connective tissue problem or have a chronic inflammatory issue that may not actually be related to their weight at all. And they may be dismissed. They may not receive the best possible care , um, because there's this bias, this fat phobia in our society, and especially in our medical culture. Um, so to the extent that this touches on the herbal world, which is pretty vast, there are a lot of supplement products, let's say. I don't regard all of them as fully herbal in nature, because they might be working with, you know, isolated constituents or just very high powered extracts or other things that drift them further and further away from, you know, the plants in your garden or the plants , uh, in your jars on the shelf or things like that. Um, but , uh, but anyway, be , be cautious about weight loss aids. Be skeptical about promises of fat , uh, loss being something rapid , uh, being something that can be both fast and sustained over time, because in general, that doesn't turn out to be true. Um, if people wanna work with green tea for other other reasons, then that's, that's totally fine. Um, but I would just give a lot of , um, a lot of salt <laugh> to claims about, yeah, swallow these capsules. Don't change anything else about your diet habits, your movement habits, your sleep, the stresses you undergo, and how you cope with them, and it'll just magically go away. That is extremely unrealistic. And , um, not something that I want anybody to go around expecting because they're gonna be disappointed. Okay? But listen, there's a lot more to green tea and to supplements made from it than the caffeine, right? The idea of energy support and the idea of weight loss aid are focused on caffeine. If we stimulate your metabolism, it will raise your basal basal metabolic rates, and then you'll be burning calories without even thinking about it. That's the idea behind that, okay? It doesn't really turn out that way in a free living human, but that's the idea. Energy support here is really just in the sense of, well, if we stimulate you, you'll feel like you've got more energy. This is not energy support in the sense of improving mitochondrial efficiency, right? <laugh> , this is not energy support in the sense of making sure your body has all the nutrients available to you, that you can power your metabolism flexibly and fluidly as you go through different changes in the course of your day. No, this is about caffeine, <laugh>, right ? Um, and caffeine is a powerful chemical. It's a , it's got strong activity, and it's not something that we can ignore. Caffeine is gonna have a drying influence. When we look at this herb from a, from a , uh, energetic perspective, we see an herb that is heating, yes. Stimulating, activating, moving , uh, metabolically enhancing. Yeah. Uh , okay, sure. So heating , uh, drying, because caffeine is a strong diuretic, and it's gonna eliminate fluids from your system, okay? Um, and tonifying tightening tensioning , uh, is the third quality that we have there. Um, and so we should never, you know, ignore the energetic aspects of our plants because there are direct observations of the influence of that herb on our physiology. Um , and I think people run into a problem where they, they know a particular plant from cultural context, from just being familiar with it as a food item or, or some other substance that people work with often, and they drift away from even thinking about energetics with that, even, even when they're trained in it, right? So we see this happen with tea, we see it happen with coffee, we see it happen with cannabis and tobacco , um, and, and pram , <laugh> , you know, and , uh, a lot of times it's because people are enchanted by the famous chemical, the, the powerful alkaloid or , or some other agent there. Um, so when we think about, about tea and about caffeine, I don't wanna ignore it, but I wanna point out that other chemistry in this plant has also been very well, you know , uh, studied and characterized and is contributing a lot to the benefits that we observe. So we can talk today about catechins , about taine , and about theophylline . These are just three <laugh> , um, uh, constituents or , or constituent groups found in a tea plant that are really active and are contributing a lot to the benefits that it exerts in our bodies. Um, when we think, when we think about green tea , uh, it's a health food. It's a , it's a famous health food. It's up there with like brown rice and , uh, and , uh, uh, and , and seaweed and , and things like this as a, as a health food. And, you know, people have had that, that idea about it, that reputation since at least the seventies and the us like very widespread, very well understood, right? Um, so green teas kind of famous in that regard, and it is indeed an excellent anti-inflammatory. A lot of the activity in that direction is attributed to the catechin contents. Um, catechins are an interesting group of constituents , uh, for a number of different reasons. One of the ones that I like to talk about is that when you start with that chemical in the plant, so the plant is doing its metabolism, it's transforming and, and , uh, complicating different , uh, molecules inside of its body inside of itself, and creating these metabolites, these, these constituents, these things that are part of, its , uh, its chemical nature and its contribution to its medic medicinal activity. Um, with catechins , the plant goes through a series of transformations where it makes catechin and then it continues to complexify or to build onto that molecule as, as time goes forward, right? And what is, what is convenient for us about this is that the longer the molecule becomes, like, the more pieces attached to it, the longer its name gets, like at the same time. So we start with Catechin , we attach a piece, and we have epi catechin , we attach another piece, and we have Epi Gallo catechin , and we attach another one. And we have Epi Gallo , catechin gallate , and I'm gonna stop there. Like the chain does keep on going for a while , but that one, EGCG is the way people usually refer to that. Um, that is , uh, like the most potent catechin as far as we understand them so far in terms of anti-inflammatory activity, antioxidant activity. And that's really, really beneficial in, in human health, especially in the modern era where we're coping with an epidemic of an of chronic inflammatory disorders where we have multiple inputs through food habits, stress exposures, sleep or lack thereof, habits that are pretty widespread, sedentary lifestyles. All these things create, generate or sustain inflammation in the body. Um, and so we've gotta work on anti-inflammatory agents. Green tea is rich in them. EGCG is a really powerful one. You will even see the occasional supplement where they have standardized for the level of catechins as a group, or EGCG in particular. Um, and this is, this is the rationale for why that's done, right? So if you see a , a green tea product and you, you read the label and you notice that it's talking about guaranteed to contain, you know, X percent catechins or x percent EGCG, this is the reason why they're bothering to put that on the label. It's for the people who know that these are the anti-inflammatory, anti-inflammatory components, and they are excited <laugh>, that they're being guaranteed a particular amount of that. Um, it's hard to make a green tea extract that doesn't have a really rich presentation of these things. So I wouldn't stress too much , um, about efforts to enhance bioavailability or to power that up , um, even further, because the level you get from drinking some cups of green tea is great. The level you get from a standard dose of a normal capsule of these things is really solid. Um, and so you don't need to be going to the, to the nth degree to try to get these into your body, the catechins and , and EGCG, right? They're all, like I said, antioxidant, anti-inflammatory as a result. And because of those two, we can branch out into a whole bunch of other , uh, uh, action terms for these things. We can say they're anticarcinogenic, that they're cardioprotective, that they're anti-diabetic, right? And again, in most cases, the , the root of those, those endpoint , um, action terms for what the plant has accomplished in the body is due to reducing inflammation or , um, uh, improving the efficiency of the inflammatory process so that it can work where it's needed, but it can run its course and then be gone , um, rather than just sticking around forever, right? And that can indeed protect your heart and help to maintain blood sugar control and reduce the propensity for nascent tumors to develop into a full-blown cancer. Um, so yeah, all of that is all that is real. Um, now I was talking about the catechins and how they, they develop into longer and longer molecules as the, as the time goes forward, as the plant's metabolism continues, right? Um, the interesting thing is that it's sort of something kind of in the reverse happens when you steep it, right? So what happens when you steep it is that the smallest molecules come out first. So that includes caffeine, actually. Um, it's just highly water soluble is what's really going on with that. But with the catechins, you get like the smallest catechins come out first, and then the slightly longer, more complex ones, and then the, the third level, and then the EGCG level and so on, right? So what this all means is that the longer you steep your tea, the more of these things you get out into the water, the part that you're gonna drink, okay? Unfortunately, what you also get at the same time , um, or as you allow it to run on, you get more and more of condensed tannins from this as well. And the tannins are astringent, and they can also have a , a bitter flavor to them at the same time. So what happens is that the longer you steep your tea, the more bitter it becomes, the more astringent it becomes. And so, in a sense, there's a kind of a, there's kind of a goldilock zone here where you would wanna maximize your extraction of the catechins and EGCG in particular, but you might not wanna let it run on indefinitely, because now it's gonna become less, less pleasant to drink. And maybe even for some people very sensitive to ification, that that a stringent effect, you might be risking gut cramps or other kinds of discomfort , um, if you're, you know, prone to that kind of reaction. This is also the reason why, like a , a tea enthusiast , uh, somebody, you know, who's, who's got a tea shop, a tea bar, you know, or does the tea ceremony as , as part of their practice or whatever. Um, there's often a very specific and brief steeping time recommended for when you're gonna prepare green tea or black tea or, or other, you know, preparations from this plant. Um, this is a question of flavor rather than medicinal potency, right? So usually when it's like, yeah , steepness for 60 seconds, 90 seconds , uh, 45 seconds, whatever the idea there is, we wanna , we're , we're going to, you are guaranteed a good caffeine extraction that that's guaranteed, right? And then we want to get, you know, like the flavor and the aromatic elements, but we don't wanna let it become bitter. We don't wanna get it astringent like that, right? And so that's why those shorter, steep times happen for me when I make , uh, green tea or black tea or others, I usually steep it more like five minutes, you know? Um, for me that's a pretty good goldilock zone where I feel confident that I've gotten a ton of the, you know, anti-inflammatory components out of there , um, and into my drink, but it's not, it's not so ast stringent that I'm, I'm getting some cramping, and I am actually one of the people I mentioned who's kind of prone to that , uh, kind of thing. I've, I've prepared tea in ways where it was giving me that kind of issue. Um, but in general , uh, from a greener black tea that I work with, five minutes is great. It is a little more astringent. It is a little bitter, but, you know, I'm an herbalist. I'm used to that. Um, I even enjoy it. So , uh, so that's how I do it, you know, for whatever that's worth to you. Uh, I do wanna make one other note though, that the long steeping, like that it's possible , um, there's some kind of back and forth on whether this really happens. Um, but it's plausible. And I experientially I think it , I think it is real that when you steep it really long like that , um, the caffeine itself can bind up with some of these polyphenols. Um, and it can slow down the, the uptake , uh, by your body of the caffeine. This is , I think, is one of the things that can contribute to a smoother stimulant effect of tea in comparison to coffee. Um, just not hitting you with all the caffeine all at once, real hot. Uh, and with coffee, there's also this, this issue of the , um, the impact of some other bitter components in coffee stimulating liver action, but also slowing down liver metabolism of caffeine. And so it's like when you work with coffee because of what else is in that drink, the caffeine hits you faster and stays with you , uh, a little bit longer with green tea, it moves into your system more slowly, but at a nice measured pace. So you do get some stimulation, but you're not like, as prone to being shaky, you know? And there's another component in tea that contributes to that, that, that , uh, that prevention or of , of like the jitteriness or the, the like, ah , you know, agitated feeling , um, when you get your caffeine from tea , um, and that is theanine . And this is sometimes written as l-theanine , right? Or theanine , you know, say it however you want, right? Um, this is a compound that's found in, in these plants and kam plants , um, and , uh, it's actually sedative, or at the very least, anxiolytic. Now remember when I say sedative, I don't mean makes you sleep. I mean, calms down agitation or over excitation, usually if the nerves could be of another tissue as well, right? Um, in this case, we are talking about the nerves. Tine is calming to the nerves. It quiets down their, their firing rate. You know, how many zaps per second that they're sending up, right? Um, and so tine can help you to feel calmer, more centered, more focused on what you're doing. Um, and in tea, it mitigates some of the stimulant effect of the caffeine. It helps you to both be alert, awake, energetic, but also not distracted, not not thrown off just present, right? And I am, I am talking about, you know, mild to moderate doses of tea <laugh> , right ? When you drink a ton of it, yeah, the caffeine is gonna dominate and you might start to get jittery, right? That's, that's real. People have varying degrees of sensitivity. So some people might get jittery at a dose that someone else just feels calm and focused. That's real, okay? Um, but again, if you were to compare giving yourself the same dose of caffeine as tea versus as coffee , um, in general, the dose of of that through tea is gonna help you to feel centered, focused, present, and alert, right? So this is why I am always saying that if I'm gonna go and do some physical activity, exercise, labor, whatever, then I'm gonna have coffee. If I'm gonna do thought work, if I'm gonna write, if I'm gonna read, if I'm gonna study, then it's time for green tea. You know, that's the way I kind of divide that personally. Tanning and el l tanning again, is the way you're gonna see that rin , you can find that as a supplement itself that isn't isolate, right? That is a , uh, uh, a single constituent extract of the plant . And , um, those can have problems. Sometimes this particular one is very safe and it doesn't really have adverse effects or side effects for you. Um, if you take , uh, isolated tanin , um, so this is an example of an herbal isolate, which can be quite beneficial , um, and many people find it very helpful. Um, so feel free to work with that. But at the same time, and just for like general education purposes here, there are some herbal isolates that are less helpful or less safe than the herbs that they're derived from. Um, we're herbalist here, and in a lot of cases our perspective is, you know what, don't go with that single compound removed from everything else in the herb. Go with the actual herb. There's a lot of reasons, a lot of cases where that's gonna be the better choice. This particular one, if you try a tanning capsule and it helps you to feel calm and centered, that's great. Go ahead and take that. Um, oh yeah, one other note on tanning. This does also seem to have some beneficial effects on what we call immune surveillance, like the capacity of your immune system to recognize when there's a nascent infection and to take care of it before it really develops. So that's a , another nice benefit in terms of immune function. Let we get there. Okay. Um, another compound found in green tea is called oph filine . And oph filine is, it's, it's structurally related to caffeine. It's, it's similar , um, but it doesn't act in exactly the same way. Instead, it serves as a, as a relaxant to smooth muscle. Um, so rather than having like a tonifying effect, this particular compound has a relaxing one specific to smooth muscle. So that's muscle that could be found like around the blood vessels. Um, and this is one of the ways where even though the herb does contain caffeine at , at moderate doses, and over time, it can help to bring down some blood pressure, right? But one of the more , um, immediate places you would feel the effect of theophylline would be in the lungs, because it can operate on the smooth muscle in the lungs themselves, and in the bronchi, the little tubes inside the lungs and help them to relax and to dilate to open up. And that makes it easier for you to breathe and to, you know, get your oxygen. So , uh, so that's found in green tea as well. And , um, there are these respiratory benefits of working with that plant. Um, one other thing about tea , and this is one that you would definitely not encounter in any of the supplement products or any of their kind of advertising and that kind of stuff, is that tea is actually surprisingly effective as a topical antiseptic. Um, now if you had a wound and you were away from your home herbal apothecary, and you had to care for a wound, you could do worse than to get some green tea bags or some black tea bags , soak 'em in hot water for a couple of minutes, and then take the whole teabag, you know, all soaked and wet and put that right on the wound. The teabag is gonna prevent the herbal powder from getting into the wound itself. Um, but it's a , a great, you know, on the spot pulis, and it will combat infection, it will stimulate healing, it will enhance the efficiency of the local inflammatory process. Um, so it's, it's quite handy for that kind of thing. Uh, this is particularly good for soaks and baths and compresses where there's a , a , a rash or some other kind of fungal skin infection. Um, so athlete's foot, you could , uh, prepare a strong foot bath of, of green or black tea and soak your feet in there. Be , be warned you, you will get some transdermal uptake of caffeine. Um, so this is more of a morning thing to do than right before bed <laugh> . Okay? Alright . Um, internally , uh, the most relevant aspects here , uh, about antimicrobial effects of tea are gonna be in the mouth, in the stomach. So if you have a dental infection, if you have a gum infection, if you have an abscess , uh, and you make some this time, make it really strong, steep it, steep it too long to be pleasant to drink, right? Uh, bitter very astringent, okay? But then take that swish with it and spit it out, right? Uh , or swish it and hold it in the mouth for, you know, a minute at a time, and then go ahead and spit it out and do that repeatedly through the course of your day. And that will help to combat the, the dental or the gum infection for you. Uh, very effectively when you, when you drink green tea , um, it could potentially help with some stomach infections, probably not lower in the GI tract, like all the way down in your bowels, okay? But in your stomach, yeah. And there's some decent evidence about green tea as a, as a drink being helpful for the infection called h pylori. Um, this is something that can contribute to ulcers. It's , uh, often , uh, gonna , going to overgrow in the stomach as a result of lowered stomach acid levels. Um, it's not , uh, something that will just like appear out of nowhere in an otherwise healthy system. Okay? Um, and many, many people have h pylori as a commensal. It's one of their organisms that lives, lives in their body, but it's not causing a problem, right ? Um, so I think part of the reason why green tea can be effective against h pylori is that it will stimulate stomach acid production, okay? Um, anytime we work with a caffeine bearing plant, when it touches the stomach , uh, it does stimulate stomach acid production there, even as it's being absorbed and acting on nervous , uh, tissue and your, your brain and your mind and all of that, it is acting on all these local tissues as well. Um, so I think part of the benefit of a , of of green tea for an infection like h pylori is both direct antimicrobial effect of the herb and its chemistry, and then also that influence of in , of increasing stomach acid production there, which is like your own innate defense against microbial invasion. So two for one, one more note on t . Um, you know , uh, the framing for this, you know, episode in the series is about, you know, products you would go and find on the store. And for, for green tea extracts and products, they're gonna be capsules. Like, almost all of them are that way. There might be some green tea extract gummies available now or soon. Um, and of course you can buy the tea and you can just drink that and, and, you know, that's fantastic and I love it. Um, but I just wanted to make a side note for herbalists that you can tincture camelia and you can tincture the tea plant. Um, and it can be a helpful thing to have on time , uh, on hand for times when you need to be wakeful. You have to, I don't know, you have to drive through the night, you have to stay up late and, you know, be the guard for the camp <laugh> you , um, whatever it is that you're, you're doing. I'm not talking about every day , I'm talking about like an acute situation. I do need a stimulant. Um, probably, you know, it's a case where you need it as as soon as possible, not too much fuss. Um, and so we often keep a , a tincture or a formula that includes some caffeine plants in there on hand for a circumstance like that. Um, it is also possible to go ahead and make a tincture of your green tea, and then take it in very measured doses to take three drops, five drops, seven drops, and see where your personal limit is to be like, I want just enough of a stimulation to keep me focused, not so much that I get jittery. Maybe you're somebody who knows if you do drink a whole , you know, eight , 12 ounce mug of green tea, that would actually be too much caffeine for your body, and you would get jittery, right? If you make a tincture, you can go a drop at a time and give an hour or two or a day between each, each dose level you try and see how it affects you, right? So that could be a way that you could like find your goldilock zone , uh, for that. Okay? All right . All right, so let's move on here and talk about , uh, number 11 on the top seller's list. That's Fnu Greek , trigon pH . Very fancy Latin name on this one. So , um, with Feno Greek , the , um, the traditions around this herb are largely focused on digestive benefit. Uh, fig Greek has both a bitter element in its flavor and a sweet element. Um, and so this is an herb that can stimulate digestive movement and activity, resolve stagnations that are present in the digestive , um, tracts, but it can also be supportive or , and building in traditional context. The sweet flavor is associated with , uh, with building the , the mass of the body building , uh, resilience and stamina even, right? Remember, this was in context when sweet wasn't as easy to come across as , as it is now, right? And we didn't have isolated sugar and candy everywhere and all of that. So , um, so traditional views on sweet flavored foods , um, which would've included rice and other grains , um, in those, in those times. Um, and then also herbs like fenig Greek or licorice or fennel. Um, the suite is seen as , uh, restorative or building to kind of baseline energy and, and, you know, mass in the body. Um, and we're gonna see the way that some of those attributes manifest in Fenner Greek , um, both in traditional perspectives and in contemporary ideas. So the thing is though, modern products, modern capsules and, and supplements of reek , they're almost all focused on and , and marketed for, or labeled to support endocrine health, hormonal health, hormonal balance. Those are the kind of , um, ideas that are floating around regarding this plant in commercial contexts. Uh, so this would include both phytoestrogenic activity of this plant , um, which in this case is real and significant enough to to matter, talk about that in a second, but also and effect of this herb to improve blood sugar regulation. And especially in the past decade, <laugh> , um, that has become more and more what you see fenugreek marketed for, or , um, or , or the, the presentation that is being given is about blood sugar control tracks directly with the increasing rate of blood sugar control problems that people are experiencing. Alright ? So, but again, in traditional practice, including culinary tradition, you know what people eat , uh, fig Greek is taken as a spice herb. Um, and you can, you can take significant doses of this through food. This is one kind of like turmeric, where it's not impossible to imagine a single serving of this that has a whole tablespoon of the powdered dur stirred into it. Um, it would be strong, but it , it , you know, it's not unusual for, for these kinds of recipes. Um, Fenig Greek has this flavor that's almost exactly like maple syrup. Like the sweet element of its flavor is, is a maple syrup sweetness, not a white sugar. Sweetness, not an, not an apple sweetness, not a , not a honey sweetness. It's maple. Maple is what it, what it tastes like. Um, so it has that, and again, it has that hint of bitter. Um, you kind of have to taste past the sweet or beyond it to, to taste the bitter, but it is present. Um, and so like I said, that's gonna get you some digestive stimulation. It's gonna get you some liver activation that's probably relevant to some of the action of reek on hormones in the body. Uh, the, the goal of improving hormone coordination and hormone balance, if you wanna use that word, is achieved in many ways, not only through forcing your body to make more hormones or introducing something from a plant that functions similar enough to one of your own hormones that we call it a phytoestrogen or a phyto androgen or whatever, right? Those aren't the only ways that we can improve hormonal , uh, coordination or hormonal health. Another major way is by enhancing elimination, right? And so that's generally through liver and kidney function. If we can enhance the elimination of waste products, or you can say hormones that have done their job and now they're getting flushed out, then that can also make a really big improvement in terms of hormonal health. And so I think that's a , at least a piece of what Feneg Greek is bringing , uh, in that regard. Fenig Greek is also a moistening herb and amongst our demulcent plants, this one is both sweet and also mucilaginous. So there's this kind of broad category demulcent herbs that , uh, function in regards to moisture in the body. They enhance the moisture of your tissue, they enhance the , um, the uptake and the utilization and the distribution of fluids throughout your system. But there are multiple types of demulcent. We've got bitter demulcent and sweet demulcent and slimy demulcent and uh, even some astringent demulcent now and then, right? We've got a whole range of them. So Fig Greek is, is a slimy demulcent or a mucilaginous one. Um, and that means that if we infuse it in water, we can see it get thicker, have greater viscosity, has a velvety or a even a slimy ish feeling when we taste it or feel it or drink it down. And that that's really gonna bring fluid into the body and help your body hold onto it and , and utilize it. Well, but then again, because of that sweet flavor, this is also a sweet demulcent. And in that regard, it's similar to licorice and to fennel , right? Um , and sweet demulcent have this kind of like coating effect on your mouth and your esophagus, and even through your stomach a little bit, where they're very soothing to those tissues. They're calming down irritation, especially like these kind of dry irritations. Um, and , uh, you know, just makes this a really, really helpful when we want to improve hydration status, fluid retention and fluid movement in the system. Um, if you take Fen Greek as a powder and you take a significant amount, amount of that in like a , a spoonful amount of that into water or stir into a meal or something, something that you eat , um, then that can actually function as a gentle laxative. This would be what we call a bulk laxative rather than a stimulant laxative like setta , okay? So a bulk laxative is also includes stuff like cilium, right? Number one on the list. You can see these are always popular with humans. Um, and uh, this same would go along for something like if you, if you take marshmallow powder, slippery elm powder and you're stirring that and , and taking that indirectly, right? We get that, that bulking effect, right? Actually Fenig Greek is best if you take it in combination with something like cilium or flax or chia or one of those guys. Um, and it could just be the two powders stirred together and then you have that in your jar. Take a little spoon, make that in a little glass of water, drink that down in the morning, and then drink a lot more water after it to follow. Yes, that would be good. Um, so I find Feneg Greek here to be a really, really helpful herb to combine with drying plants. Um, particularly in somebody who has a dry constitution already. Like maybe somebody really wants to work with turmeric. They've heard all the hype, they're like, this is gonna be great. I'm gonna bring down my inflammation. My joints are gonna feel better, my brain's gonna function great, this is gonna be good. But they're really dried out, right? And so what if they take two parts turmeric and one part fagre , and that's what they're gonna dose themselves with instead of straight up turmeric. That can be enough to mitigate the drying effect of a plant like that, right ? So that's a really handy case to think about working with Fagre , so about those hormonal actions, alright ? When you take this plant insignificant doses, and in some cases for this to take effect, we're talking about doses of half an ounce, like 15 grams, 30 grams, you know, a full ounce of that per day , um, or more, okay? Or more in order to get observable significant effects on hormonal activity in the body. Um, one of the places that's most traditional in that regard is around , uh, milk production, right? So this is the galactic gog effect of our plants. Um, Fenig Greek in this regard is very similar to fennel, and in fact, they're often combined together for that specific purpose. One thing I wanna point out about both these plants is that although they do both have some degree of phytoestrogenic activity, and like I said, insignificant large doses consistently every day for some period of time, that can start to be , become real and a big contributor to what we're seeing here, right? But before that <laugh>, we're gonna get the more immediate impact of the demulcent effect , right? The sweet demulcent, the collagenous demulcent, the absorption, the utilization, the movement of water in the body. And when we're talking about milk production, that matters a lot. I think that matters at least as much as these hormonal effects of the herb that are gonna come with a big dose and with sustained intake. Um, it is similarly necessary to get a pretty significant dose of this plant in order to have an observable impact on your blood sugar levels. So when I say a significant dose, that could mean that we're talking about making, making tea, right? But making a lot of it, or drinking a lot of it, making it strong. Um, if you have an ounce of , uh, fenig Greek seed every single day and you prepare that into, you know, a couple quarts of tea that you drink over the course of that day, that's kind of the level where we're starting to see significant changes in, you know, your blood sugar , uh, test , right? Your little test strip , um, your little , uh, you know, little jab into the finger kind of a thing. Um, so that can be achieved that way. It can also be achieved in supplement products these days because they can concentrate a lot of the chemistry in the plant and they can refine it down into a, a fairly small, you know, capsule for you to swallow. But that could give you a significant dose. Um, it's possible for a , a capsule of fagre to be the equivalent of , um, you know, several grams worth of, of plant material. So if you're taking those every day, you're taking them consistently , you know, we could get there. Uh, the thing is, these effects travel together. And so in some cases that means that Fen Greek might not be the best choice for, for one or another of these actions. Um, so as an example, maybe somebody had a breast cyst, but it's kind of been dormant, you know, it was detected some years back, maybe it used to be more irritating, but it's kind of faded , uh, away. And then they were gonna take an herb to try to bring down their blood sugar levels, right? And they took Fen Greek and they took it in big amounts. They were doing like the herb of the month, kind of a challenge thing, right? Quarter of strong tea every single day or more, you know, for at least that long period of time. Um, we've had students who were doing that and had that, that background with the dormant breast cyst. And um, they did find the level of Fen Greek that brought down their blood sugar pretty significantly, you know, on those, on those tests. But that they also kind of awoke the cyst and got it inflamed, got some more fluid stagnating in it and around it. And so it was swollen and so it was painful again. Alright ? So we've seen that or something like that happen to a few people who have been working with Fagre at those elevated doses, right? Um, so just keep that in mind that if you're taking a dose of fagre strong enough to bring down your blood sugar, you are probably also inducing a pretty significant phytoestrogenic activity in your body. And that might be something you're hoping for. It might be something that you really don't want , um, or anywhere in between. Okay? So , um, try to consider and understand your context there. If you're gonna work with that herb now for culinary amounts , um, for spicing your food enough to taste a little maple, maple syrup , uh, sweetness in there, that's generally not gonna reach you to those levels. And when we talk about taking Fen Greek as a component of a formula, right? Like I have four herbs and then Fen Greek in my tea blend, generally the amount you're gonna be exposed to that way is not enough to have a real significant effect on your , uh, on your sex hormones, right? Your, your estrogen levels or that kind of thing. And it may not have enough , uh, potency either to really significantly bring down your blood sugar. Now, if you're also doing several other things that are contributing to improvements in your blood sugar regulation, you might get where you're trying to go, right? Um, what I'm saying is that if you're not relying on Fenig Greek as the only intervention, the only agent to help your blood sugar normalize, then it can be an effective part of a team <laugh>, alright ? Right ? Um, even at levels where just all by itself with no other change to habit , it wouldn't really move that needle. All right ? Good. Okay. So next up, last disturb for this episode today is ivy leaf. So this one in Latin is Heera Helix. Helix like a, like a DNA , right? Like the twining twining ladder. The curving ladder. Um, 'cause it grows like that, it grows in spirals. So Ivy Leaf is an interesting one , uh, from the perspective of this, this market report, this data about top selling plants, okay? Um, because , uh, according to the chart sales of Ivy Leaf products declined by 28, almost 30% from the prior year. Uh, it's possible and I think it's likely that some of this change is actually due to a recalibration of the inclusion criteria. And by that I mean which products they included in their assessments , which , um, outlets or stores that they included in their data gathering to determine, you know, which products were being sold at what level? Um, I think that this is related to something that happened a few years ago where there was this her called Horehound, that's ma rubian vulgar . Um, horehound used to be right up at the top of the bestseller charts, right? There were several years where it was number one and then it disappeared, <laugh>, right? Pretty much overnight. And it turns out that wasn't because of, of a massive crash in the, you know, the sales of, of hound products or cough drops that contain it or whatever it was, because they changed the inclusion criteria to exclude a bunch of products that do contain hor horehound extracts. But, and , and , and used to be included in the, in the data for the table, but then they moved it out, right? So , um, I, I mentioned that , um, in part to like give some context about Ivy Leaf here , but also to give some context about this investigation that we're doing in our series, right? When we're thinking about this, you can't just say like, here's the data and it tells me everything I need to know. You wanna say, where did that data come from? How has that data changed over time? Is the report I'm looking at today using the same data set as the one that's from 10 years ago? And if it's not, it can lead to changes that might mislead you if you don't have that sense of context and that awareness about what's going on there. Alright ? Um, this is true in lots of things when it comes to science and math and <laugh> economics and whatever , um, that it's easy to oversimplify and it's easy to miss the effect of something that's separate from the behavior that you think you're tracking or that you think you're documenting. Okay? But let's talk about Ivy Leaf itself, right? So Ivy Leaf is a respiratory remedy, and that's true through the tradition of the herb. That's true through the modern expression of the plant in the market. Um, nowadays, cough syrups and cough drops and products like that are the primary things you're gonna find that include vy leaf extract. Um, sometimes you do see single herb products for vy leaf, you can find them capsules, tablets, whatever. Yes. Um, but most often it's gonna be in a formula with a bunch of other herbs and the ivy leaf extract is in there to be an expectorant to stimulate the expulsion of phlegm from your lungs to get that up and out clear, clear your lungs for you . So yeah, so these are often multi herb remedies. Like I say , there are tablets, there are capsules, there are single, you know, herb ivy leaf syrups and other things available out there. But more often you're gonna get these combo products, right ? And from , from my part, I do think that it's better to give Ivy Leaf some friends. Um, when you're working with it, it seems to function a lot better that way. Uh, it is very reliable for that purpose. You know, you have a phlemmy cough, not a dry one, not a rattling one where you cough and hack, but there's nothing in there coming out. There's nothing, nothing, nothing coming through. But one where there's gunk, there's phlegm, it feels heavy, there's a wet sound to the breathing or to the coughing, right? Those are the times when you want ivy leaf. Kind of similar indications for other stimulating expectants like Horehound or like campaign . Those are the same kind of reasons that you would go ahead and work with Ivy Leaf. Okay? Now, the tradition about this plant does include a broader array of applications than just respiratory stuff, right? The respiratory stuff is there, but also some topical applications , uh, for things like an ulcer, like a skin ulcer or various rashes , um, on the surface of the skin, and then also for swellings underneath the skin, right? Like there's a , especially a a , a soft lump that has formed somewhere on the body. Um, and, and again, maybe even more especially so for where the lymph nodes , um, are swollen. Um, in some of the older texts, you see this just referred to as quote swollen glands, but they do mean they do mean lymph nodes, right? So like under the chin or under the armpit or under the breast tissue in the groin area, you know, swellings in those areas are lymphatic stagnation and people would take iv , they would make a strong decoction of it and soak a cloth and place that over those areas and basically do a compress for some period of time, right? Um, or other methods of topical application to try to move that fluid from where it's been stuck to disperse that to, to flood that away. Um, so all those kinds of issues of inflammatory , uh, irritation and stagnation on the skin and , uh, particularly fluid stagnation, right? So think of that in the respiratory thing in the same context. We have too much wet gunk stuck somewhere. We wanna move it away and get it out, right? So whether that's in the lungs or whether that's like somewhere stuck under the skin, you can work with the ivy leaf to drive that fluid out. Alright ? Um , historically strong decoctions of ivy leaf were also employed for , uh, little biting bugs in the hair. So lice , um, and that sort of critter , uh, you would again make a strong ivy leaf decoction, you would pour that onto your head, you would like soak the hair in it for a while and like massage it through and it would drive away the bugs. Uh, it would also, by the way, dye the hair black. Um, so, you know, be warned, <laugh> , uh, there's certainly easier ways to cope with lice in the modern world. Um, but you know, if we find ourselves post apocalypse and you remember , uh, me talking about this , uh, back in the era when we all had magic phones in our pockets , um, then maybe you find some ivy leaf, maybe you make a strong decoction and maybe you have fewer bugs on your head for, for a night or two. That sounds pretty good to me. Yep , I can keep that one in my back pocket. Uh, I did wanna note that everything I've been discussing here so far has been about the leaf of the plant, right? Um, uh, historical practices also did include working with the resin or the exudate from the bark, right? So you would need a pretty well established , uh, IV vine to find, right ? But you could slit the bark and there's this exudate, it's like a resin that comes out from a , from a pine tree, something like that, right? This one's, you know, softer, it's not as thick, but anyway , so it's an exudate. Um, it is a gum resin, chemically speaking. It has a stringent activity to it and it also has an analgesic effect. So you would see people working with this part of the IV and making little , um, little , uh, gob droplets or goblets of it and putting those onto something like a toothache, right? Put it right inside in the gum, right up against the tooth that hurts. Um, hold it there, let it, let it kind of absorb in, and it would serve as an in , uh, as a pain relieving agent , uh, for that, for that reason. Um , also, again, very stringent. So this is actually making it kind of similar to something like myrrh resin. Um, you know, many resins have these effects of , uh, of tightening the tissue , uh, oftentimes impacting the nerve in one way or another. In this case, it's to dull the sensation of pain. Um, some residents might stimulate your sensation, so just <laugh> , you know, not all residents are equal, but, but they share some overlapping qualities, tightening , um, the mu mucosal tissue and doing something to the local nerve. Again, in the case of the IV exudate, it would be for pain relief. Um, this again, is a historical practice. It's not really one that I see herbalists speaking about in the modern context. Um, and you certainly don't find products , uh, oriented around that. Um, but it's interesting to know. And , um, uh, I think there's a lot of aspects about the way people used to work with herbs that have changed over time. And when I think about things like that, I always wonder like, will that come back again? You know, will that cycle around again in some future society when people have more need of that kind of thing or , um, when other items aren't available? And , uh, you know, Ivy Leaf is, is a pretty resilient plant. It seems pretty , um, capable of keeping up with , uh, some of the changes we're experiencing in our climate. So , um, hopefully this one will be around for a good long while. All right , so that's our , uh, three herbs for today. Um, I'll put a few links , uh, for further reading and investigation into the show notes here. And , uh, I'll put also some links to the previous episodes of the series. Uh, if you, you can check those out if you haven't already. Um, before I go, I wanted to remind you that , uh, in addition to doing this podcast, we have an entire herbalism school online. You can learn from anywhere. You can learn at your own pace. Um, all of our courses are centered on video lessons, so it's just as if you were in the classroom learning directly from us. We also make a lot of different ways for you to get direct contact with , um, with us, me and Katya , your teachers, and also our faculty members. So every lesson in our courses has a discussion button and you can open that right up while you're still watching the video, type in your questions, you'll get an answer within a day. Um, you can pop over to our student community, which is kind of like social media, but just for herbalists, <laugh> , right? And you can post in your thoughts and your experiments and what's you're in enjoying and what's growing up in your yard, and get some other excitement and, and feedback from , uh, from your peers. And we have twice weekly live q and a sessions where you can just ask us questions right there in a Zoom chat. Um, and , uh, any student enrolled in any of our courses is invited to attend those. Um, so you can find all of our offerings@online.com and wealth herbs.com and I hope that you'll check 'em out and find something that you're excited to learn. All right , we'll have some more holistic ALS and podcasts for you soon. Until then, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, drink some tea, and hey, it might as well be some green tea <laugh> . All right , see you again. Bye.